§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many persons originating from Uganda have been detained since August, 1972, in (a) Harmondsworth Detention Centre; (b) Pentonville Prison, and (c) Canterbury Prison respectively; how many have been detained without charge for one month, two months, three months and five months; what is the total period of these detentions; what has been the daily cost to public funds of each person for such detention and the total cost; and how far these costs have been recovered from the carrying aircraft and shipping lines.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS)My Lords, the records kept in the Department are not such as would enable the particulars requested by the noble Lord to be extracted without disproportionate effort. I can however, as a representative example, give your Lordships' House information about people in custody on January 4 this year. On that date, 7 people of Ugandan origin were detained at Harmondsworth, 9 at Pentonville and one in Canterbury Prison. Two were United Kingdom passport holders, 10 were citizens of Uganda and 5 were Stateless. Two had been detained for less than one week, 9 for between one and two weeks, 5 for between two weeks and one month and one for more than two months. The cost of detention varies, depending on the place of detention. The costs of detention are recovered from the carrying company which brought the passenger to 948 the United Kingdom if the passenger is refused leave to enter and removed from the country, unless he arrived holding an entry clearance, certificate of patriality or work permit.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, while appreciating that Answer and recognising that I asked the noble Viscount for a great deal of information, may I ask him this question? Is he aware that I have in my hand a long list of those who were detained in Pentonville for up to 97 days without charge, and were subsequently released as entitled to remain in this country? Is there not some quicker way by which these cases may be considered? Is the noble Viscount also aware that I have a long list of others who have been in Pentonville or Canterbury prison for between 30 days and 53 days, against whom no charge has been made and whose cases are still under consideration? Can the noble Viscount do something to prevent the detention of people in prison, without charge and without trial?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, the answer is, No; I was not previously aware of any of those matters because the noble Lord did not show me any of those lists beforehand. I should be delighted to see them if he would be so kind as to give them to me. As part of the answer to that supplementary question, I ought to say that I do not think there is any quicker way of dealing with these cases, taking account of the extreme thoroughness with which they are investigated. I have recently been looking at some of them myself, as my honourable friend is in the sub-Continent of India, and I am very satisfied with the extreme thoroughness and care of the investigation to which these cases are subjected, and it is quite right that they should be.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I say to the noble Viscount that I did not mean any discourtesy. Is he aware that I have supplied the Home Office with details of each of these cases, which I know intimately? Will he consider the case of a family who are to be deported tomorrow to Rome? They have six children in this country who are prepared to provide them with accommodation and finance. Is he aware that there is a man of 58 who is old and frail, a wife who is suffering from skin complaints because of 949 nervous tension, and a son who is handicapped in speech? These are refugees from Uganda, and tomorrow morning they are to be sent back to Rome; but when they get to Rome they will be re-shuffled back here. Will the Minister look into this case very urgently before that deportation takes place to-morrow?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I do not think I can give an undertaking of that sort. The noble Lord cannot raise without any notice whatsoever the question of an individual case of this sort, and expect me to give an answer about it. If these people are to go, it is only at the end of a very long and careful process of examination either by one of my colleagues or by myself. I do not think that this is a case which I have considered, so it must have been looked at by one of my colleagues, and I cannot undertake to reconsider it before tomorrow morning.
§ LORD GEORGE-BROWNMy Lords, what bothers me is not whether the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, has been courteous or discourteous. If there are people who have been held in gaol for 70 days or 50 days, surely the Minister must know. He must get his own information and he does not have to get it from the noble Lord, Lord Brockway. He said that he did not know because the noble Lord had not told him. What some of us who are not wholly committed will be happier to know is that Ministers are regularly told how many people they are holding in gaol without charge for more than the period allowed by British law. If they are holding anybody for 50 days or 70 days, Ministers should know and should tell this House. Will the Minister please be a little less facile, a little less brassy, and tell us if he knows whether people are being held in British gaols for much longer than British law allows?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSYes, my Lords; I know very well that they are not. I have given some examples of the lengths of time that certain people in these three places—one detention centre and two prisons—had been there, as on a particular date in January. These were given as examples. I am aware, and my honourable friend 950 the Parliamentary Under-Secretary Is aware, why these peole are there, who they are and the lengths of time they have been there. I am also extremely well aware of why they are there; and these are matters which I really do not think I can go into in general because they depend on the facts of each individual case.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, we fully appreciate that there has to be careful examination of these difficult cases, but would not the noble Viscount agree that there must be concern if there are people held in prison for some 90 days who are then released to join the community? Could the noble Viscount say whether there are procedures for the review of a person's case so that if, after (shall we say?) 30 days, it appears that there is a reasonable prospect that a person will remain within the law and that his whereabouts will be always ascertainable, that person could be released from prison while that review is concluded? Is there a machinery by which a decision can be made for these people to be released if there is a feeling that this would be a right course to take?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I do not think there is. The reason why they are in custody in the first place is because it is considered that if they are not kept in custody while their case is being considered they may very well disappear again, as in many cases hitherto they have done for a long period. It is not lightly that people are put in custody. The length of time they remain there depends upon many factors. It so happens that I was looking at a case the other day in which a particular gentleman told a series of totally mendacious stories, each one differing substantially from the last; and the length of time he remained in custody depended solely upon the series of lies that he himself told to the immigration authorities. He stayed in prison for a very long time, but it was entirely his own fault, because he would not tell the truth in the first place. As it so happens, I have some reason to believe that he may stay here; but, nevertheless, it takes a very long time to find out the facts. This is why I say that it is not very easy to generalise about the reasons or the lengths of time that people stay in custody. But we are not inhuman about this: we do try not 951 to keep people in prison for any longer than is absolutely necessary.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I fully accept that, but would the noble Viscount undertake to consider whether there should not be some means by which these cases can be reviewed, so that a person could be released if, in the judgment of the Minister or of the authorities, it would be fair and reasonable for that person to be released from prison while his case is considered?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I cannot resist an appeal like that from the noble Lord. I will certainly consider it, though I must say, having looked at a few of these cases myself, that I cannot do so with any great promise that anything will be successfully achieved.
§ LORD WADEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount whether he is in a position to say how many of these people are bread-winners, with families in this country?
§ LORD HALEMy Lords, can the noble Viscount say what happens if we deport a Ugandan to some place within the E.E.C. and he is then deported back here? What happens to such a person when he arrives here; and why has not the whole of this problem been considered by the Brussels Commission?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I was looking at the terms of the Question set down by the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, and I think that I may justifiably say that that is another question. If the noble Lord will put it down I will seek to answer it.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that I did not mean any discourtesy to him in not giving him notice about this particular case? Is he also aware that my difficulty was that I have only just heard from the Home Office that this family is to be deported to-morrow morning? I agree at once that he cannot give a definite answer on this case at once, but would it be possible for me to see him this afternoon in order to consider the details of it?
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, can the noble Viscount say how long a period of notice was given to this particular family that they would be deported to-morrow?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, it would help me greatly to answer that question if I had the faintest idea what family it was.