§ 3.50 p.m.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)My Lords, I should like, by leave of the House, to repeat a Statement that is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster on the work of the Council of Foreign Ministers this week. The Statement reads as follows:
"The Council of Foreign Ministers met on Monday and Tuesday and was concerned primarily with regional policy and energy policy. Once again 972 it did not prove possible to reach a unanimous conclusion on the Regional Development Fund. Recognising the urgency of reaching a conclusion it was agreed that there would be a further Council meeting on January 30 to deal with this subject. We will continue to press vigorously for a satisfactory outcome. Her Majesty's Government attach the greatest importance, as agreed at the Paris Summit, to the establishment of a Fund of substantial size and applied to the needy regions of all the Community countries.
"The House will be aware that progress on regional policy is linked with the adoption of a second stage of economic and monetary union and a Community energy policy. The Community decided however to accept President Nixon's invitation to a meeting of the major oil consuming countries.
"Finally, I should mention that the Council of Agriculture Ministers, meeting on Monday, did not agree to a French proposal that there should be an immediate 10 per cent. increase in the Community guide price for beef and a ban on imports from third countries."
My Lords, that is the end of the Statement.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, of all the reports the Government have given us on the work of the Council of Ministers, this must be the most unsatisfactory. Despite that, however, we are grateful to the noble Baroness for having repeated it. We must sympathise at least with the officials in their negotiations, because the Government are in fact negotiating from a weak position, not only with the monstrous balance-of-payments deficit but with, in particular, the deficit that is now arising between this country and the other Eight within the Community.
The Government say that they attach great importance to the Regional Development Fund and refer to the urgency of reaching a conclusion. Would not the noble Baroness agree that the first error was the failure of the Prime Minister to obtain an understanding as to the size of the Regional Fund during the Summit Conference? Can the noble Baroness say why the 973 Government have now shifted their ground since before Christmas? At that time they thought that the Commission figure was too low. Now they say that it is "substantial". Can the noble Baroness say what, in the view of Her Majesty's Government, is a substantial size for this Fund? In regard to the French attitude on beef, and the suggested duty on export and the ban on imports, would the noble Baroness please confirm that it is not the intention of Her Majesty's Government ever to agree to such an imposition while meat is at its present high price; and will the Government ensure that there is no back-door way of circumventing their views?
In regard to economic and monetary union and a Community energy policy, I presume that the Statement as drafted is a polite way by which Her Majesty's Government are effectively blocking any further discussion in view of the attitude of the Council of Ministers to the Regional Fund. Could Her Majesty's Government say whether it is their view that it is of interest to have a common energy policy within the E.E.C., or do they now share the view of the French that it would be better to proceed unilaterally, as the French have done, and as in the case of Her Majesty's Government with Iran? Do they believe in a unilateral approach to this problem or to a common energy policy within the Community? My Lords, we believe that the decision of the Community to accept President Nixon's invitation for a general discussion on energy problems is very wise, since this is the one organisation that is in any way in a position to use effective bargaining powers with the oil suppliers.
§ 3.55 p.m.
§ LORD WADEMy Lords, I should like to join in thanking the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement. It seems to me that it is absolutely essential that the Regional Development Fund should be substantial, otherwise it is not going to be possible to achieve the objects of regional policy. Therefore I hope that Her Majesty's Government will continue to Dress that particular point. It is perhaps appropriate, in view of the debate that is taking place here this afternoon, to mention the unique difficulties of Wales and Scotland, and 974 their concern about this regional policy. If there is to be a compromise at all, I should have thought it would be best in the realm of time-spread: that is to say, it may be that we should receive less in the earlier years and more later. But it is extremely important that the total should be adequate.
I note the acceptance of President Nixon's invitation. I wonder whether Her Majesty's Government have in mind ultimately a possible meeting of oil-exporting countries and oil-consuming countries. I do not think that an agreement, if reached by the oil-consuming countries, will mean the end of the road.
Lastly, I have a point to raise for purposes of clarification—it may be that the Statement is not absolutely clear. I certainly welcome the decision not to agree to the French proposal for an immediate 10 per cent. increase in the Community guide price of beef, but I notice that the Statement continues:
and a ban on imports from third countries.Surely the French have not gone so far as to propose a general ban on imports. That would be totally out of keeping with Community policy. I presume those words refer to a ban on beef imports. In any case, I am glad that that idea was not accepted.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I would say first of all to both the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, and the noble Lord, Lord Wade, that I am glad they welcome the decision by the Community to accept President Nixon's invitation to Washington on February 11. To the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, I would say that the current financial difficulties, not least those which have been caused by the oil question overseas, are likely to hit all Community countries, not only our own. He asked whether Her Majesty's Government had shifted their ground on the question of the size of the Regional Development Fund. We originally proposed a size of 3,000 M.U.A.s for three years, but in order to try to move and show flexibility we have said that we realise that the Commission proposal for 2,250 M.U.A.s over three years is a substantial sum. We might consider moving towards it if it would mean agreement by other members.
975 On the question of beef, I would say first of all to the noble Lord, Lord Wade, that the requested ban on imports was only on the imports of beef, because there are now heavy supplies of beef within the Community; and there is, as I understand it, no back door by which the 10 per cent, rise in the guide price could be achieved. On E.M.U. and energy policy, we already supply all the information we can to the Commission on the energy problem, and basically the Community energy policy as at present comprised is, first of all, that the Commission should draw up energy balance sheets; then it should examine all aspects of the energy situation; and then it should make proposals to ensure the orderly functioning of the common market for energy and establish an energy committee of senior officials. The E.M.U. proposals, which are long and so I will not delay the House on them, are in fact agreed but have not yet been finally approved.
Lastly, I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Wade, that in the map of the regional development areas which was proposed by the Commission and which we approved, the whole of Scotland is included, as of course are Northern Ireland, Wales, our special development areas and the development areas.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, would the noble Baroness be forthcoming in just one respect? She said she recognised that the figure of the Commission was substantial, and that it was the intention to be flexible and to move towards it. Is she saying that it is not the intention of Her Majesty's Government to accept any figure that is lower than that of the Commission?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I do not think I could possibly go into details of negotiations to this extent. I do not think it would be wise or in the interests of this country or indeed of the Community. However, the noble Lord asked me about the difference between our position and the proposals of the Commission, and that I have answered.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, would not the noble Baroness agree that amid the obscurity surrounding this subject the only light in our dark- 976 ness seems to be that there is a large measure of deadlock; and would not she agree that in order that we may all, as citizens of the Community, judge the performance of our respective Governments in this matter, we ought to have a fuller account than the five minutes or so that she has been good enough to give us? Would she assure us that our Government are prepared to press for the publication of verbatim records of what takes place in the Council, whose decisions are binding on every citizen?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am afraid I cannot give my noble friend Lord Lauderdale that assurance because it has been felt from the beginning of the European Community that the discussions within the Community are of the greatest value where the Ministers concerned feel that they can be quite frank with each other; and therefore I could not agree to the publication verbatim of proceedings.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy, Lords, would not the noble Baroness agree that the Council's Rules of Procedure provide for a public session?
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, we cannot put up with that.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, can the noble Baroness honestly say, after the remarkable enthusiasm she displayed when the Treaty of Accession was signed, that she is satisfied with the situation? Is she satisfied with the disagreement between Germany and the United Kingdom? Is she satisfied with the readiness of her right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary—the master of appeasement—to compromise? Is she satisfied also with the attitude of the French Government, who are only too willing to take unilateral action in connection with the proposed Conference on energy? Further, is she satisfied with the attitude of the French Government in seeking to satisfy the French farmers and peasants by raising the price of beef by 10 per cent.? Is she honestly satisfied with all that?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords. I should like to assure the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, that my enthusiasm at being a member of the European Community is undi- 977 If he will do me the honour of reading back through the debates on the European Communities Act—which I am sure he will not—I think he would realise that all along I said that I felt the first few years would be very difficult. It is difficult enough for six countries to learn to work together; it is much more difficult for nine. I really must repudiate what the noble Lord has said about my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and appeasement. The fact that my right honourable friend has stood firm on wanting a substantial Regional Development Fund is a very good thing in the interests of this country. But the fact that he is not completely rigid, but he is prepared, in the interests of the whole Community, in, eluding ourselves, to get a solution to this problem by possibly moving a little from his position, I should think would be a mark of his political skill and judgment.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, if I may take the noble Baroness to the question which I asked, is it not the case that the Rules of Procedure of the Council provide for open sessions? Would she not agree that either we have open sessions or else she endorses this country's 17th century Parliamentary procedure—so successfully contested by Wilkes and then Hansard—that our proceedings should be in secret?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I think we have plenty of debates in this House on the general principle of the Regional Development Fund and on energy, the two main questions which are the subject of this Statement. It is always open to my noble friend—and indeed he often does—to put down Questions of all kinds regarding our attitude towards the Community policy. I think it is better to leave it to the Community itself to decide whether or not to have an open session.
§ 4.15 p.m.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for the Statement may I ask whether she is aware that her noble friend Lord Carrington categorically and unequivocally said from that Bench opposite last week, when we were discussing energy, that North Sea oil was British—"and that is that". Are we now, both in the other place and in this House, being 978 forced into a position where, without the facts and on a five minutes' Statement, we are to sit back like a lot of sheep and accept facts given to us without discussion before Parliament? Finally, so far as the cost of food to the British housewife is concerned, one of the causes of our economic trouble and the strikes and the threats of strikes is the high cost of living which the European Community has helped to create.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I remember sitting beside my noble friend when he said that North Sea oil is British, "and that is that", and I entirely agree with that fact, just as German coal is German coal. On the question of the cost of food, no doubt the noble Lord will be aware that it is the price of food, among many other commodities in the world, which has risen and which is giving a better return to the primary producer. The cost of food in the index of the Common Market as applied to our cost of living is only 1 per cent. of the total.
§ LORD RHODESMy Lords, arising out of the reply which the noble Baroness gave to my noble friend Lord Shinwell, may I ask whether she agrees that we, as a country, should work out our own financial salvation instead of going with a begging bowl to Europe every time we want to do something for the regions?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, we are trying to reach a consensus as to how we can work out our own salvation and to get over this very difficult time in this country. Apart from what we do already to help the regions—our own State aid—we are also entitled to receive help from the Regional Development Fund of the Community as a whole.
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, how does the noble Baroness reconcile the sensible proposal in the Statement to co-ordinate the energy policy with the undignified scramble which is going on between Ministers and the Governors of the Bank, calling in Saudi Arabia and other countries of the Gulf, and trying to make a bilateral agreement to the detriment of this country? Secondly, how does the 979 noble Baroness reconcile her enthusiasm for the statement made by the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, that British oil is British "and that is that" with the fact that more than 50 per cent. of the oil has now been handed over to foreign interests, and that the tax paid in this country will he less—indeed, probably one-half—of the tax that either the Arabs or the blue-eyed Arabs of Norway are taking from foreign countries?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware Norway is not, alas!, a member of the Community, and we are talking about a Community energy policy. We are particularly talking about energy, not only about oil. It is perfectly understandable, if certain Arab countries are interested in their economic development, that they should ask for teams from European countries, whether members of the Community or not, to visit them to see how they can help.
§ LORD O'HAGANMy Lords, would the noble Baroness accept that even those who are not wanting to dance in glee at the sight of the Community being in a temporary difficulty feel that the Government could take a closer look at the means they use to inform the people of this country about what they are doing on our behalf? Would she also accept that the work of the Commissioner in the European Commission dealing with regional policy, Mr. George Thomson, has attracted praise from all quarters in the Community, and that it would be appropriate for people in this House, whether they believe in the Community or not, to recognise that his groundwork will be a major factor in the ultimate success of the regional development policy? Would the noble Baroness give an undertaking that Mr. Thomson will be given the maximum possible chance to start as near the beginning again as possible in order to reach agreement among all the partners to achieve a Community policy on regional aid that the Council of Ministers will not allow this to turn into a national argument, but will use his good offices, especially since he has established such a remarkable reputation in his work so far?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am sure the House as a whole welcomes the tribute 980 to Mr. George Thomson made by the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan. He has indeed worked very hard as one of the Commissioners on regional aid, and certainly we in the United Kingdom delegattion will do all we can to back him up. I would say to the noble Lord that I read with the greatest interest the debate on the report of the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King, on a possible Select Committee of this House, and the different ways in which this House might be informed rather better of Community affairs than is done through Statements such as this. Until this really gets going, I think my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster felt it only right to keep the House informed.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that we might find ourselves in a very strong bargaining position at the Washington conference by virtue of our enormous potential resources of North Sea oil? Would the noble Baroness not agree that this position will be greatly weakened so long as the Government persists in its mistaken policy of making unilateral agreements with the oil suppliers?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, we hope that we will be in a position at Washington to help towards a solution among the consuming countries which would then lead on to larger meetings, perhaps with the producer countries, and also with those from the Third World who are in an even weaker position. Unfortunately, our oil does not yet give us a strong bargaining position. For the moment I am afraid I have forgotten the last question of the noble Lord. Would he be good enough to repeat it?
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, would we not weaken greatly our strong bargaining position as long as we persist in our unilateral policy of making bargains with the suppliers of oil?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, we have not yet completed any bargains at all with any supplier, but as the noble Lord knows, we have a normal trading position and many of the countries with large surplus funds would like to take advantage of our technology.
§ LORD GREENWOOD OF ROSSENDALEMy Lords, as the noble Lady's 981 enthusiasm is apparently undimmed, can she hold out any hope that in the near future the Government will issue a White Paper specifying the benefits which they believe have accrued to this country from a year's membership of the Community?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I cannot give an undertaking about a White Paper, but no doubt in the months to come there will be plenty of time in which to make public speeches about this matter.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, there is a further question, as this is an important matter. Can the noble Baroness say whether anything that has happened since the Treaty of Accession was signed which would justify her in trusting the French Government? Secondly, is she aware that there is something worse than deceiving the general public, and that is self-deception?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am not aware that we have deceived ourselves, nor do I think it right to comment on other members of the Community.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, if this House is to be called together specially on Friday to hear a declaration about a General Election, could that day be devoted to the consideration of this matter, which obviously leaves many noble Lords very discontented?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am most interested to hear that point of business, which I myself had not heard about, and I doubt if it is correct.