Lords Sitting of 8 February 1974

Preamble
The House met at eleven of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of London.

PRIVATE BUSINESS
11.5 a.m.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, I should like to explain shortly the twofold purpose of the lengthy Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. First, it is to provide for Private Bills introduced this Session, and now before the House, to continue their progress in the next Parliament. Otherwise the Promoters of these Bills, and such Petitioners as there are against them, would be put to the trouble and expense of depositing their Bills and Petitions again after the Dissolution. In the second place, paragraph 7 provides that the Standing Orders relating to the serving of notice on parties affected by a Bill, which have in fact been complied with in this Session in respect of a hybrid Bill now in another place, need not be applied again should the Bill be introduced in the next Parliament. The effect of this provision is to save the time and expense of serving about 200 notices on those affected by the Bill. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved,

(1) That the promoters of every Private Bill which shall have been introduced into or presented to this House in the present Session of Parliament, shall have leave to introduce or present the same in the next Session of Parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in the Private Bill Office not later than five o'clock on the last sitting day of the present Session; and provided that all fees due by them thereon, up to that period, be paid;

(2) That a list of all such Bills, with a statement of the stages at which they shall have arrived, shall be prepared in the Private Bill Office, and printed;

922

(3) That every such Bill shall be deposited in the Private Bill Office not later than Three o'clock on or before the third day on which the House shall sit after the next meeting of Parliament for business other than judicial business, with a declaration annexed thereto, signed by the agent, stating that the Bill is the same in every respect as the Bill at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this House in the present Session;

(4) That the proceedings on any such Bill shall, in the next Session of Parliament, be pro forma only in regard to every stage through which the same shall have passed in the present Session, and that no new fees be charged in regard to such stages;

(5) That the Standing Orders by which the proceedings on Bills are regulated shall not apply to any Private Bill which shall have originated in this House in the present Session, in regard to any of the stages through which the same shall have passed;

(6) That no petitioners shall be heard before the Committee on any Bill in the next Session unless their petition shall have been presented within the time limited in the present Session;

(7) That all Standing Orders complied with in respect of any Public Bill presented in the House of Commons during the present Session shall be held to have been complied with in respect of any Bill presented in that House in the next Session provided that the Bill presented in the next Session is the same in every respect as that which was presented in the present Session; and where the Examiner has already reported that the Standing Orders have been complied with in respect of any such Bill, he shall report only whether any further Standing Orders are applicable.—(The Earl of Listowel.)

On Question. Motion agreed to.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move the first Motion standing in his name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That Standing Orders No. 38 (Arrangement of the Order Paper) and No. 44 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be suspended until Parliament is prorogued.—(Earl St. Aldwyn.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move the second Motion standing in his name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That leave be given to the Lords concerned to advance the following Bills from Thursday the 14th and Tuesday the 19th of February to this day; vizt.:—
Statutory Corporations (Financial Provisions) Bill,
Charlwood and Honey Bill.—(Earl St. Aldwyn.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act 1911, and read 1a.
Then, Standing Order No. 44 having been suspended (pursuant to Resolution), Bill read 2a: Committee negatived; Bill read 3a, and passed.

PENSIONS (INCREASE) BILL
11.10 a.m.
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act 1911, and read 1a.
Then, Standing Order No. 44 having been suspended (pursuant to Resolution):
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD WINDLESHAM): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. The main purpose of the Bill is to provide supplements for Public Service pensioners whose pensions on award have
924
been affected by Stages 1 and 2, or only by Stage 2, of the counter-inflation policy. The Bill also makes four amendments to the Pensions (Increase) Act 1971 which are not related to these supplements. This is an agreed measure which will bring benefits to about 100,000 public servants who retired in 1973, or who retire this year or, in one or two cases, 1975. They include teachers, police, fire service officers, civil servants, local government and National Health Service officials.
I am grateful to the Opposition for facilitating the passage of this Bill before Prorogation. It will be of very great benefit to substantial numbers of people at the end of their period of service to the public. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Windlesham.)
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, it is a pleasure to thank and, for once, to congratulate the Government on this Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, has sustained the high standard of good relations in these matters with the Civil Service unions. It is a fact that one of the inequitable consequences of a pay freeze is that, whereas those still in service can catch up, pensioners lose out for ever. The same problem existed during the days when I occupied the post that the noble Lord now holds. This Bill is a simple piece of justice which, among other things, reflects the excellence of the Whitley Council system and the techniques for consultation within the Public Service. Since public servants are always apt to fall behind in these matters, I certainly very much welcome this Bill.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, I should like from these Benches to welcome this Bill and its acceleration through Parliament. The Government have taken exactly the right decision. It is a measure which will affect quite a number of people. But this is a problem which is not only arising with Public Service pensions; it is arising in a much wider field. I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, could say whether this problem can be dealt with under the terms of this Bill, or in any other way, so far as people outside the Public Service are concerned?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, may I thank both noble Lords for the

925
welcome they have given to this Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Byers, asked about the effect on private sector pensions. In bringing these proposals before Parliament, the Government have been conscious of the fact that the same problem has affected the private sector as well. We do not believe that the Government should take action for the public services which cannot be followed in the private sector. Consequently, the Inland Revenue are making changes in their Code which regulates occupational pension schemes to enable those responsible for such schemes in the private sector to consider making comparable changes. I cannot, of course, predict how many of them will wish to make such changes. The change in the Inland Revenue Code will also enable the nationalised industries to make similar provision for their pensioners if they wish to do so.
Since the noble Lord, Lord Byers, was kind enough to give me notice that he wanted to raise this matter this morning, I have made some further inquiries and I understand that the Inland Revenue have already begun consultations with occupational pension interests in the private sector, with a view to making the necessary change in their rules at an early date. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Byers, is himself closely concerned with occupational pensions, and if he would like more detailed information I should be happy to arrange for him to be put in touch with the appropriate Inland Revenue officials.
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Windlesham.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL
11.15 a.m.
Brought from the Commons, and read 1a.
Then, Standing Order No. 44 having been suspended (pursuant to Resolution):
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. There was published yesterday the Fourth Report from the Speaker's Conference on Electoral Law which recommended an increase in the amount that a candidate for another place may spend on his election expenses, and the proposition was that the limits should be increased from those at the present moment in the law to the figures that appear in the Bill; that is to say, the existing maxima of £750 plus 5p for every six electors in a county constituency and for every eight electors in a borough constituency. This figure is to be increased to £1,075 plus 6p for every six electors in a county constituency and for every eight electors in a borough constituency. This covers a number of expenses—not the candidate's personal expenses, but printing, advertising, stationery, hire of committee rooms, and so on; also fees paid to election agents, sub-agents, polling agents, clerks and messengers.
As many noble Lords will know, particularly those who have been Members of the other place, it is illegal knowingly to incur expenses in excess of the maximum. This is essentially a matter for aspiring Members to another place. That House passed the Bill yesterday. I am very willing to answer any questions that noble Lords may wish to ask, but we thought there was an urgent need to legislate upon this matter in order to provide these increases for candidates, and I hope your Lordships will therefore agree that it is right that we should hasten this Bill through this House in rather the same way as it went rapidly through another place yesterday. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I think the Speaker and his Conference are to be congratulated on disinterring this Report in time to make it possible for aspiring Members of Parliament—and this of course is no concern of ours—to be less at risk in regard to their expense limits. The many Members of your Lordships' House who have been candidates for and Members of another place will remember the slight agony

927
while the agent tries to complete his accounts and make them fit the law. I will say no more than that, except for the further comment that if the present rate of inflation goes on during the remaining days of this Government, the amount may be inadequate.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, this measure is obviously sensible and merely represents the increase in the cost of living; therefore it should go through.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I am grateful for those comments. In fact the Speaker made a small reference to the decrease in purchasing power, and I have a feeling that those concerned with him in this matter will have taken account of the effect of the next three weeks. I fancy what they have done is to add a little.
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE of CULROSS: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS BILL
EARL COWLEY: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Earl Cowley.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL
11.20 a.m.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD ABERDARE): My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Local Government Bill, has consented to place Her prerogative
928
and interest, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (BARONESS YOUNG): My Lords, for reasons that my noble friend the Leader of the House explained yesterday, I beg to move formally that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Baroness Young.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

CHARLWOOD AND HORLEY BILL
House in Committee (on Recommitment) (pursuant to Resolution).
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment; Report received.
Then, Standing Order No. 44 having been suspended (pursuant to Resolution), Bill read 3a, and passed.

STATUTORY CORPORATIONS (FINANCIAL PROVISIONS) BILL
House in Committee (on Recommitment) (pursuant to Resolution).
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment; Report received.
Then, Standing Order No. 44 having been suspended (pursuant to Resolution), Bill read 3a, and passed.

ANCILLARY DENTAL WORKERS REGULATIONS 1974
LORD SANDYS: My Lords, I beg to move that these Regulations be approved.
Moved, That the Draft Ancillary Dental Workers Regulations 1974, laid before the House on January 24, be approved.—(Lord Sandys.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the Order designating certain Lords Members of the European Parliament dated December 20, 1972, as amended by the Order dated October 24, 1973, shall remain in force and effect, notwithstanding the Dissolution of Parliament, until this House otherwise orders.—(Lord Windlesham.)
LORD WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, can the noble Lord the Leader of the House tell us whether the position of those noble Lords who are members of other bodies is affected by the Dissolution? I refer in particular to the North Atlantic Assembly.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, I do not think so. The Motion before the House now is in any event for the avoidance of doubt. Noble Lords remain Members of the House of Lords, happily, whether or not Parliament is dissolved. It is just that they are unable to discharge their responsibilities on the Dissolution of Parliament, but they remain Members of Parliament.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

EMERGENCY POWERS ACT 1920
11.26 a.m.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, I beg to move the next Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, thanking Her Majesty for the Most Gracious Message sent on Her behalf by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother and Her Royal Highness The Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon, to whom had been delegated certain Royal functions as specified in Letters Patent dated the 24th day of January 1974, communicating to this House the Declaration made on Her Majesty's behalf that a State of Emergency exists.—(Lord Windlesham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: the said Address to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

EMERGENCY (NO. 2) REGULATIONS 1974
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, I beg to move the Emergency Regulations Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. The Regulations which are now before the House, the Emergency (No. 2) Regulations 1974, are those which were referred to in the Statement by the Home Secretary which I repeated to your Lordships yesterday. The Regulations are almost identical with the previous Regulations. I have been through them, and there are no changes of substance. The changes are only in the title and some drafting changes. This carries on the series of Emergency Regulations which have now been approved by the House on three occasions since they were first introduced at the start of the present Emergency in November. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Emergency (No. 2) Regulations 1974 made by Counsellors of State on Her Majesty's behalf in Her Council, and laid before the House on February 7th 1974, shall continue in force after the expiration of the period mentioned in Section 2(2) of the said Act, subject to the provisions of Section 2(4) thereof.—(Lord Windlesham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

ADJOURNMENT DURING PLEASURE
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure. The time at which the House will be asked to reassemble for the Royal Commission is dependent on the progress of business in another place and it will be announced on the Tannoy.
My Lords, as this is the last occasion on which during this Parliament I shall be at the Dispatch Box on this side of the House as Leader of your Lordships' House, I should like to take this opportunity to thank the noble Lords on the Opposition Front Bench, the Liberal Front Bench and the Cross-Bench Peers, as well as our own supporters on this side of the House, for the work they have done in the period during which I

931
have been Leader, since June of last year.
I believe that the House has continued to raise the public regard in which it is held and we have seen on a number of occasions the tolerance and the generosity of the House—sometimes during difficult and controversial debates on the state of the economy and the industrial situation, which we have debated three or four times since November. I have been conscious also of a feeling of collective wisdom, and for that I should like to record my thanks to your Lordships.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friends, I should like to express my thanks to the Leader of the House. On the last occasion when Parliament was about to be dissolved, we comforted one another by saying that at least we in this House should all be back, though there was some doubt at that time as to where in the Chamber we should be sitting. I shall not attempt to prognosticate on this on this occasion, although I am bound to say that I should feel very sorry if a number of noble Lords who have so recently joined the Government Front Bench were not able to continue their training as Lords in Waiting.
It has been the practice in the past—perhaps sometimes rather unjustifiably—for me, as Leader of the Opposition in your Lordships' House, to give "an end-of-term report" on the performances of Government Ministers. On the last occasion I believe I said that they were "doing quite well". There have been some noticeable improvements, but above all I should like to emphasise that there have been times when noble Lords have been caught in rather awkward situations and we have treated them with courtesy. I must say that they, in their turn, have treated the House with courtesy, and we appreciate this. On the last occasion I remember the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, saving that he had no doubt we should all be here again, and indeed that we should all be here again in four years' time, still saying the same things. I think the situation has changed a great deal and I do not think that Parliament will be saying the same things in the future.
I wish all noble Lords in this House a happy Election campaign, conscious
932
that they have no problems over expenses and that they do not have to go through the agonies of the count. At the same time I should like to express sympathy for those who at present have marginal seats.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, I should like first of all to thank the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, for the remarks he has just made, and also for the unfailing courtesy he has shown during the time that he has been Leader of the House. I should in addition like to congratulate him on performing his duties in such a masterly fashion. On behalf of my colleagues, I would express the hope that if by some regrettable chance the Conservative Party should be returned to power, at least we shall be seeing the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, in the same place in this House in a month from now. Under his direction we have succeeded in having, if not exactly amicable debates, at least debates without the frightful animosity that is sometimes manifested elsewhere. I must say that I trust that this atmosphere will continue no matter which Party comes into power—whether it be the present Party or whether, in accordance with the welcome prediction of the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown, we have a totally different set-up.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I am sorry to rise again—I have no right to speak again; but before the noble Lord sits down may I say how very much, on the whole, we have enjoyed—though we have sometimes been angered—the performance of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONE): My Lords, in this Parliament the number of noble Lords on the Woolsack helping the Lord Chancellor has been rather greater than ever before; and I should like to say a personal word of thanks to them. I am sure the House would wish to join with me in doing so, because they have performed a notable public function; and certainly, speaking for myself, I must say that they have made my burdens a great deal lighter than those of previous Lord Chancellors.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: My Lords, although the right reverend Prelates failed to get a mention from the

933
noble Lord, the Leader of the House, we should like to join with those who have already spoken and express our gratitude for the continued courtesy and kindness that we have received from the Leader of the House.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and House adjourned accordingly.
House resumed.