HL Deb 05 February 1974 vol 349 cc713-8

2.51 p.m.

LORD WINDLESHAM rose to move:

That a Select Committee be appointed to consider Community proposals, whether in draft or otherwise, to obtain all necessary information about them, and to make reports on those which, in the opinion of the Committee, raise important questions of policy or principle and on other questions to which the Committee consider that the special attention of the House should be drawn;

That the Committee have power to appoint sub-committees and to refer to such sub-committees any of the matters within the terms of reference of the Committee; that two be the quorum of such sub-committees and that they have power to appoint their own Chairmen;

That the Committee have power to co-opt any Lord for the purpose of serving on a sub-committee;

That the Committee and any sub-committees have power:

  1. (i) to send for persons, papers and records; and
  2. (ii) to adjourn from place to place;

That the Committee have leave to report from time to time;

That the Committee have power to appoint persons with specialised knowledge for the purpose of particular enquiries either to supply information which is not readily available or to elucidate matters of complexity within the Committee's order of reference;

That the Minutes of evidence taken before the Committee or any sub-committee from time to time be printed and, if the Committee think fit, be delivered out.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. Your Lordships will recall that we debated the Maybray-King Report on Procedure for Scrutiny of Proposals for European Instruments on December 6. It was a long debate and extremely useful from the standpoint of the Government to have an opportunity to hear the views of noble Lords in all parts of the House.

Since then the Procedure Committee met on January 29 and considered a memorandum, submitted by myself on behalf of the Government, covering all the outstanding details concerning the establishment of the proposed European Communities Committee. About 20 or 30 of your Lordships attended. The members of the Select Committee on Procedure were supplemented by three members of the European Parliament, by the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King, and several members of his Committee and by several Peers who had spoken in the debate on December 6. The Committee debate continued for about two hours and the main point to emerge was the terms of reference of the new European Communities Committee. The arguments for and against the wider terms of reference proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King, or the narrower terms of reference preferred by the Government were discussed at considerable length, inevitably with some difference of view.

I think it right to say (those of your Lordships who were present at the Procedure Committee will be able to correct me if I am wrong) that a consensus emerged at the end of the meeting that the House should be recommended to go for the wider terms of reference contained in the Order Paper to-day. The proviso, which has also been recommended by the Procedure Committee, is contained in the Report that the Chairman of Committees has just proposed. In the words of the Report: They — that is the Procedure Committee— believe that a Committee with these terms of reference should not interpret them too widely and should adopt a selective approach to its work. They also recommend that after a year's experience the European Communities Committee should review the scope of its function in the context of its terms of reference and report to the House. My Lords, in view of the overwhelming support for the Maybray-King recommendation, both in the debate in this House on December 6 and also in the Procedure Committee last week, I thought it right in my capacity as Leader of the House, having taken the measure of opinion in all quarters of the House, to follow the opinion of what I believe to be a clear majority of your Lordships. In my Motion to-day, therefore, I have adopted the Maybray-King recommendation in regard to the kind of Committee that is needed and in regard to the work that it should be asked to do for the House as a whole.

My Lords, this subject has been very thoroughly debated, both on the Floor of the House before the Christmas Recess and also in the large meeting of the Procedure Committee, supplemented by the noble Lords to whom I referred earlier. There has been the spirit of give and take in the exchanges to which we in this House are accustomed and my feeling is that we cannot usefully pursue the argument again now. I believe that the Motion before us to-day is a highly significant one in the history of the House. I am sure that all noble Lords will agree that the thanks of the House are due to the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King, and to the members of his Committee for their very dedicated and thorough work which has made this new parliamentary institution possible. My Lords, I beg to move.

2.57 p.m.

LORD MAYBRAY-KING

My Lords, I am happy that your Lordships have accepted the Procedure Committee's Report, and also that the noble Lord the Leader of the House has now moved a Motion which, broadly speaking, carries out the recommendations of the Select Committee over which I was proud to preside. That Committee worked very hard. It travelled widely and heard many witnesses. It discussed European questions deeply, and finally, after months of labour, presented a series of recommendations of which this is perhaps the most important one. Perhaps, my Lords, in the swan song of this Committee I may re-echo my thanks to my colleagues on the Committee, and also express my personal indebtedness for the wisdom and experience of the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, and the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, who helped me right through the arduous discussions that we had.

I think I speak for the whole of the Committee when I say that we accept the modifications which the Leader of the House and the Government have made in our recommendations. The size of the new Select Committee is smaller than we envisaged, but the provision for sub-committees and for co-opting on to sub-committees achieves the object we had in mind: that in this vast undertaking we ought to be able to call on the width and depth of wisdom and experience in your Lordships' House. The proposed watchdog in Brussels went some time ago, unhonoured, but not unsung in the Press. The powers that we proposed to give to the chairmen of sub-committees have gone, on reflection I think wisely. The power we concentrate in the hands of Chairman of the Select Committee. But these are points of detail compared with the main conception.

The European Community is now making legislation affecting the lives of everybody in the Community, including the life of every British citizen. Yet so far no machinery exists in either House to enable Parliament to influence the views of Ministers before they come to the Council of Ministers in Brussels to make such important decisions. To-day, if this Motion is carried, we shall set up such an instrument for the House of Lords. I believe that the other place will very soon be setting up its own Committee, differing from ours because, as the Select Committee of the House of Commons point out in their Report, the nature, powers and functions of the House of Commons are quite different from those of this House. But I am happy that both Houses agree that expert specialist staff will advise both the Committee that we are setting up to-day and the Committee which, one hopes, the Commons will be setting up very soon. We want especially a legal adviser to both Committees. We shall certainly keep our own Clerk as Clerk of the House of Lords Select Committee.

The new Select Committee will have a tremendous load of work. The Procedure Committee recognise this, and especially the burden that is placed on the shoulders of the Chairman of this Committee. We had recommended that there should be a salaried Chairman, and if your Lordships study the Report of the Procedure Committee you will find they propose the appointment of a Deputy Chairman of Committees, to help the Lord Chairman of Committees, whose work, we know, is so onerous yet performed so magnificently. The main duty of the Deputy Chairman will be to act as Chairman of the Select Committee that we are setting up today.

On behalf of the now defunct Committee I wish to say that we are grateful to the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal for the way in which he has dealt with our Report. We are grateful to the Procedure Committee for subjecting our proposed terms of reference to searching criticism before finally giving them their blessing. The European Parliament is itself moving steadily towards becoming a more Parliamentary body and our own representatives there are helping in that process. The role of the Council of Ministers, vis-à-vis the Commission, is rapidly changing. Almost every other national Parliament in the Community has created machinery for scrutinising the work of its own Ministers before they go to the Council for decisions. So it is in a dynamic and changing structure that the British Parliament must play an effective role. I believe the need for action is urgent, and I am glad that the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal has acted with such speed. We reported late last year and your Lordships debated our Report in December. The noble Lord has carried out every undertaking he gave during that debate, and the Committee are grateful to him. Speaking personally, I should like to thank him for the kindness, courtesy and understanding that he has shown to me on the many occasions we have talked together about this important issue. I commend the Motion to the House and I hope that it will be accepted unanimously.

2.59 p.m.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, we have of course debated this matter very fully. I think the arrangements are extremely clearly thought out. We are taking on wide responsibilities, and whether we are for or against the Common Market it is surely high time that Parliament did its duty in this respect. I should like to echo the appreciation of the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King, for the speed and thoroughness with which the noble Lord the Leader of the House has acted in this matter.

On Question, Motion agreed to.