YOUTH EMPLOYMENT SERVICE (NORTHERN IRELAND) ORDER 1974 (Hansard, 16 December 1974)

§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, NORTHERN IRELAND OFFICE (LORD DONALDSON OF KINGSBRIDGE)
My Lords, I beg to move that the Youth Employment Service (Northern Ireland) Order 1974, a draft of which was laid before the House on 5th December, be approved. The purpose of this Order is to replace the present Youth Employment Service by new and improved arrangements. The main effect of the Order will be to dissolve the Northern Ireland Youth Employment Service Board, to transfer its staff to the Department of Manpower Services, where they will be employed within a new guidance and placement unit catering for all age groups, and to provide for the establishment of a Youth Careers Guidance Committee.
Until now, the Youth Employment Service has been the responsibility of a statutory Board which operated separately from Government Departments and which was established in 1961. Under the proposed future arrangements, the functions of the Board will be discharged by the Department of Manpower Services by a guidance and placement unit which is being created to cater for all age groups; information about careers, and personal guidance will be provided by specialist teachers employed within the school system, with support services provided by the Departments of Manpower Services and Education; and a Committee known as the Youth Careers Guidance Committee will be established ot review and make recommendations to the Departments of Education and Manpower Services about the services provided. This will be a kind of monitoring committee.
These changes follow from the recommendations of an Inter-Departmental Working Party which was set up at the beginning of 1974 to review the Youth Employment Service and related matters. The Working Party found that the development of the Youth Employment Service had been inhibited by a number of difficulties. Foremost among these difficulties was the fact that the service, provided as it was by a separate statutory 1005 Board, was divorced from the main stream of employment work, which is the responsibility of the Department of Manpower Services. Moreover, because comparatively little careers teaching was being undertaken by the schools themselves, the Board's officers had been obliged to spend a disproportionate amount of their effort on this most important function at the expense of developing contact with industry and building up a sufficiently detailed knowledge of job opportunities.
Through the absorption of the service within the Department of Manpower Services, young people will have the full benefit of the professional skills and information which are at the Department's disposal. By the development of specialist careers teachers—who will be fully supported by (although not employed by) the Departments of Manpower Services and Education and the Area Education and Library Boards—they will benefit from personal guidance and information services at a level which they have not hitherto enjoyed. I am confident, therefore, that the result of the changes now proposed will be the provision of much improved services for young people.
To look now at the Order itself, Article 3 provides that the Youth Employment Service Board will be dissolved on a date to be appointed. Article 4 provides for the transfer of the Board's officers to the Department of Manpower Services, and, together with Article 5, ensures that the interests of the officers are protected after transfer. Article 7 empowers the Departments of Manpower Services and Education jointly to establish the Youth Careers Guidance Committee to which I have referred. The changes for which provision is being made in no way imply criticism of the Youth Employment Service Board. On the contrary, the Board has done a most valuable job, despite the problems which it faced, not least among which were a number of bomb attacks on its premises and other terrorist activities.
In the belief that by means of a new, integrated employment service within the Department of Manpower Services young people will best be able to realise their full potential, I commend this Order to the House. My Lords, I beg to move.

§ Lord BELSTEAD
My Lords, the House is not always able to give Northern Ireland Orders the detailed consideration which they would receive if they were being considered at first hand in Northern Ireland. Thanks, therefore, are especially due to the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge, for his detailed explanation of this Order, because it deals with a subject which is absolutely vital to the social and commercial development of Northern Ireland, namely, careers guidance and the placement in employment of young people.
My Lords, as the noble Lord has explained, the Order dissolves the Youth Employment Service Board and creates a new Youth Careers Guidance Committee. The affairs of the Board will be transferred to the Department of Manpower Services. May I make the point that this is a departure from the decision which was taken over a year ago in Great Britain where youth employment has become a duty for each local education authority. However, I understand the explanation of the reasons for this Order and I accept that for Northern Ireland the new structure is very probably right.
May I join with the Government in recognising the excellent work which has been done over the years by the Youth Employment Service under their chairman, Mr. Vivian Simpson. The officers and staff of the Board in Belfast often carried on their work in very difficult circumstances. As the noble Lord has said, on many occasions they suffered terrorist attack, and latterly the Board was faced with some uncertainty about the future, with consequent difficulties over staff recruitment. So for the officers who are to be transferred there will now be a wider and more secure career, and this I accept.
May I ask the noble Lord whether the Government are yet in a position to indicate how soon the Department of Manpower Services will be able to offer the new terms and conditions of employment to the officers who are definitely going to be transferred? This seems to me to be of the greatest importance to 1007 people who have served loyally in difficult circumstances. I am also thinking of those who serve in the Youth Employment Service area offices who could be hard hit if they were to find themselves redundant and they happen to be living in an area of especially high unemployment. I am particularly heartened to read of the composition of the new Youth Careers Guidance Committee. The matching of industry and commerce with education should provide an effective balance. I am only sorry that the Government are not yet in a position to be able to give information about the new chairman of this important committee.
My Lords, finally may I make two points which are related to paragraph 7(3) of the Order on careers guidance and placement in employment. I hope that the work of careers guidance in schools will continue to be encouraged in every way. The noble Lord referred to more or to new careers teachers. I do not think that this is the moment to question the noble Lord closely on this; however, I was interested in his passing remark. I hope that the new committee will have very close links with the Association of Careers Teachers which has done good work in Northern Ireland and, of course, has links with the association across the water in Great Britain.
Secondly, I trust that the placement of young people within the new unit of the Office of Manpower Services will not be swallowed up and become an indistinguishable part of the adult service, even though it is part of the new unit, To place a school leaver in employment can require very different considerations from adult placement, and those same considerations often continue to apply when a boy or a girl decides to go back again for advice for a second, or a third, or even a subsequent time. I hope that this is a point of which the new YCGC will not lose sight.
My Lords, I think that I am right in saying that Northern Ireland has every reason to be proud of its industrial training service. This is yet another reason for supporting the provisions which the noble Lord has explained, because they will strengthen the links between education and training. I hope that the Order will continue even more effectively the work 1008 for which the Youth Employment Service has been responsible.

§ Viscount AMORY
My Lords, I was extremely interested not only in what the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of Kings-bridge, said but in what was said by my noble friend, who also knows Northern Ireland very well. Clearly this decision is one of those pragmatic decisions which has been reached in the light of experience. To somebody who does not know Northern Ireland it seems that in those circumstances the degree of integration proposed may be a sensible solution. I do not think that we need to worry about the fact that these arrangements are not exactly in line with the arrangements here, provided they suit the circumstances in Northern Ireland at the moment.
Would it be in order for me to ask the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, whether the incidence of unemployment among the young in Northern Ireland is alarming in relation to the general level of unemployment there? That is to say, is the incidence of unemployment falling at the present time with particular severity upon the young?

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGE
My Lords, the loss of the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, was my gain. Also the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, had time to think of something to say. If I may answer the question of the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, I do not have figures with me, but I will write to him to give the exact figures. However, as your Lordships know, the position in Northern Ireland is that unemployment is very patchy; where it is bad, it is bad among the young as well.
I am glad to say that unexpectedly I find that I have the figures. The unemployment figures for school leavers in November were 1,368; the figures for young persons under the age of 18 who were unemployed, which includes school-leavers, were 2,270; and the number of young people entering employment in a normal year is 14,000 to 15,000. Therefore the proportion of unemployment is not unreasonable. However, this gives a more favourable picture than the truth because of the patchiness; there is no 1009 doubt that in the bad areas youth unemployment is disturbingly high, as is unemployment generally.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, for the welcome he has given to this Order. He asked me one or two questions, but first may I thank the noble Lord for his praise of the Board. We are very anxious that this perfectly normal and sensible change should not be regarded as a criticism. The point which the noble Lord made that employees of the old organisation wiil now have a wider ladder of promotion is very important and I can absolutely guarantee that there will be no redundancy; there is no question of this at all. We shall take on all those who were being employed. The noble Lord asked me about the chairman; I do not yet have his name. He asked me also about the date; this is still under discussion. It will be announced shortly, but I am afraid that I cannot yet give him the date. The noble Lord asked me, too, whether we would keep closely in touch with the Northern Ireland Schools Careers Association. The answer is, Yes, of course. That is exactly what the Youth Careers Guidance Committee is for, and it will keep in touch with that particular group and with any other relevant groups.
The noble Lord ended by asking me to ensure that the special skills required for dealing with young people would not be lost in the wider approach of the manpower services. There will have to be—and it is essential that there should be—specialists in careers and placement for the under-eighteens; but there should be no hard and fast line, as there has been up to date, performed by members of two different services. The difference will not be in the lack of specialism, but in the lack of a line between the two groups. It will be a specialised part of the overall service and I think that it will be all the stronger for its links outside its own specialties. My Lords, I think that I have answered the questions put by the noble Lord and I am grateful for his support.