HL Deb 16 December 1974 vol 355 cc914-6

2.40 p.m.

Baroness SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will take steps to stop the construction of high rise flats.

The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Baroness BIRK)

My Lords, the Government recognise that high rise flats are not suitable for families with children, but it would not be right to stop their construction altogether.

Baroness SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, I must confess that I am rather disappointed by that Answer. Is my noble friend aware that there is medical evidence that the unfortunate mothers with very small children who are condemned to live in these high rise flats have been suffering from severe depression, and does she think that that is conducive to marital harmony and to preventing juvenile delinquency?

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, my noble friend is quite right and the Government are well aware of this research. In fact, Government research is strongly against high rise living for families with children, but it shows that it is suitable for single people and small households. I would remind my noble friend that whereas in 1966 18 per cent. of local authority dwellings in blocks of 10 storeys and over were approved, in 1973 only 1 per cent. were approved. So there has been a very considerable drop.

Lord JANNER

My Lords, I wonder whether when high rise flats are being planned there could be some provision of recreational accommodation for children within the flats themselves, so that parents would not have to worry about them playing in the grounds without supervision.

Baroness BIRK

Yes, my Lords. Provision is made and a subsidy of £18 per child is allowed. One of the problems has been the great demand on local government expenditure, so that although the ground is there a great deal of this work has not been carried out.

Lord SUDELEY

My Lords, may I ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that a dirty street in London is a delicate social organism, and it is much better that people should stay there than attack one another with knives in a high rise flat?

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, I do not really think that those are the alternatives. The problem is that we are short of land, the density is high and we have to do the best we can. But without any doubt we are decided and generally agreed—and most local authorities certainly accept this—that high rise living is not right for families with children.

Lord AUCKLAND

My Lords, while agreeing that the Government cannot possibly impose a ban on high rise flats, can they give more attention to the safety factors involved? Is the noble Baroness aware that in some cases the barriers and safety rails are quite inadequate? May I further ask what discretion is given to local authorities in limiting the numbers of storeys to which these high rise flats can be built?

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, one of the limiting factors in such buildings is the cost yardstick; the higher the building the more expensive it becomes. The Department have sent out a number of design bulletins, pointing out to local authorities the disadvantages of these buildings. If a local authority came forward with plans for a high rise building for family living of the type referred to by the noble Lord, the Department would stress very strongly what is now known against such buildings and would certainly ask them to think again.

Lord REIGATE

My Lords, how high is "high rise"? Is there any reason why it should not be limited to six or seven storeys?

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, "high rise" is above four storeys, where you need a lift.

Lord SLATER

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that these flats are not an asset to family living? I should like to ask when we will get back to terra firma—say, with three or four-storey flats—rather than having them built as they are at the moment, under planning regulations made by local authorities on behalf of the Ministry.

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, this is what we are trying to do, but it is extremely difficult to do it in heavily populated areas where land is short.