§ 3.24 p.m.
Viscount BARRINGTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government, in view of the alarming and apparently increasing number of abortions now being performed both in the public and private health sector, what are the existing regulations for the disposal of aborted human fœtuses, whether dead or alive; and whether in their opinion those regulations are the most satisfactory possible in the circumstances and are being complied with.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I shall answer this question in two parts. First, any fetus born alive at whatever gestational age is entitled to the full protection of the law and there is a legal responsibility on all medical staff to take all possible steps to sustain its life. A fetus born alive is a live birth which must be registered under the Births and Deaths Registration Acts. Secondly, as to the disposal of a dead fœtus and fœtal material, this is a matter of medical ethics and is not subject to statutory provision. Within the National Health Service it is the responsibilty of each health authority to ensure that appropriate arrangements are made. Before a registered nursing home is approved under the Abortion Act, the Secretary of State for Social Services has to be satisfied with the procedures proposed for the disposal of dead fœtuses and fœtal material.
Viscount BARRINGTONMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his Answer, parts of which I very much welcome, may I ask him two short supplementary questions? First, in regard to living fœtuses, could the noble Lord inform the House a little more exactly how experiments on living fœtuses, which have been carried out in this country at least up to the age of 19 weeks, are affected? Secondly, regarding the disposal of dead fœtuses, what restrictions, if any, are there on the sale of dead fœtuses for purely commercial purposes, such as—to give a fantastic 777 example—for the manufacture of soap and cosmetics, as it is now alleged is being done?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, everyone is very concerned about these allegations, and indeed some of them are tantamount to an accusation of murder. The Department of Health and Social Security has therefore referred the matter to the Director of Public Prosecutions, who has instituted police inquiries. The Department of Health and Social Security has received no report whatsoever concerning the disposal of foetuses in the manner suggested by the noble Viscount. But perhaps I ought to say at this juncture that the Toilet Preparations Federation has been reported as stating that, as an industry, it has no knowledge whatever of this practice.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, I am a little puzzled by the phrase "living fœtus". Is it not a fact that any embryo which is delivered alive is a human being, and is protected by the law of murder? Further, is it not a fact that any experiments on it are covered by the law of assault and by all laws affecting criminal assault on human beings? Might I further ask the noble Lord whether, except in the womb, the expression "living fœtus" is not a misuse of language?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am much obliged to the noble and learned Lord. What he has said is, as always, perfectly true, but I understand that that is the phrase used.
§ Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether lie is aware that many of us are very disturbed about the exercise of the law with regard to abortion, as it stands at present? May I ask him whether it is not time that a really strict inquiry was pursued by Her Majesty's Government into what is going on?—because one understands that, here and there, there are different approaches. These may have no foundation but are nevertheless very disturbing, so may I ask the Minister whether he would agree with me that it is time that this matter was very closely investigated?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, Perhaps the noble Baroness will allow me 778 to take note of what she has said. I would say that this is a matter which has been considered by both the Lane Committee and the Peel Committee, both of whom have expressed some satisfaction with the arrangements. If I may say so with great respect, I think that perhaps the noble Baroness's question covers a rather wider field, and perhaps she will allow me to look at it to see whether action can be taken along the lines she has suggested.
§ Lord PANNELLMy Lords, will the Minister tell us what further matters there are to be inquired into? The Lane Committee sat for a very long time and, generally speaking, they gave the Act of 1967 a fairly clean bill of health. May I further ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that, though many allegations have been made, they are not true?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, notwithstanding the Report of the Lane Commitee and the Peel Committee, there is still a good deal of anxiety in people's minds. I think we recognise this. The Department has this matter in mind and are watching it very carefully.
§ Lord VERNONMy Lords, is the Minister—
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHEPHERD)My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord will give way to the noble Baroness, Lady Masham of Mon, who has on two occasions endeavoured to put a supplementary question.
§ Baroness MASHAM of ILTONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord what research is done on post-abortion depression after the foetus has left the womb?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, perhaps the noble Baroness will allow me to remind her that that is outside the original Question, and I would want notice of it if I were to give a really informative answer.
§ Lord VERNONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the number of abortions to persons resident in England and Wales since 1972 has remained more or less static, and that the number of abortions to persons resident in Scotland has declined?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, in point of fact there is a decline at the 779 present moment. The abortion figures received since 1972 show that the rate of increase has declined very significantly.