HL Deb 11 December 1974 vol 355 cc639-42

2.57 p.m.

Lord MONTAGU of BEAULIEU

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of tests carried out by the Motor Industry Research Association and the Cranfield Institute of Technology on the Model 70 invalid tricycle, they consider this vehicle safe or suitable enough for use by physically handicapped drivers.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, the answer is, Yes, provided it is driven with proper regard for its limitations and special characteristics, and bearing in mind that it is a tricycle and not a car. A number of design changes have already been made; others are in hand and we are continuing to study further ways of promoting the safest possible use of this vehicle.

Lord MONTAGU of BEAULIEU

My Lords, while I thank the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask whether he is aware that there will still be 14,000 of these tricycles on the road which will not be adapted? How long does he think they will be able to continue with safety? Has not the time come, in view of the unsatisfactory situation which exists as regards invalid carriages, for the Government to accept the unpalatable facts, which have been compiled by MIRA, that these vehicles are unsafe and that it would be better to have a gradual transfer to four-wheeled vehicles, which are not only safer but more socially acceptable, as well as being cheaper?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I would remind the noble Lord that every mechanical vehicle has an element of unsafety. There are a large number of users of the three-wheeled vehicle that we are discussing who have written to us expressing the view that it should not be taken away. As noble Lords will know, it is the intention of the Government to make mobility allowance available to disabled people in the next financial year and, as a result of that, a vast number of people who do not at present enjoy easy mobility will be able to do so.

Lord LUCAS of CHILWORTH

My Lords, is the Minister quite satisfied that the exemptions currently granted to exclude this kind of vehicle from the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations are in order, particularly in view of the increasing number of accidents that have taken place with this type of vehicle?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I apologise, but I do not really understand the noble Lord's point.

Lord LUCAS of CHILWORTH

My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord does not quite understand my point. Perhaps I can put it more simply. Is it right that the exemptions which this vehicle has from the Construction and Use Regulations, are valid, particularly in view of the number of accidents caused by this type of vehicle?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, having regard to the number of vehicles on the road, the number of accidents is comparatively small. I think noble Lords must bear in mind that the fact that all repairs are done by the Department of Health and Social Security means that every accident, however minor, is reported. There are no grounds for saying that simply because there appear to be a large number of accidents this type of vehicle is not serving a useful function.

Lord LUCAS of CHILWORTH

My Lords, is the noble Lord saying, therefore, that, because of the small number of accidents compared to the number of vehicles, those vehicles should be excluded from the Construction and Use Regulations?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

No, my Lords; what I am saying is that when this vehicle is examined from time to time and adjustments or additions are needed, they are then put into operation and, as I pointed out to the noble Lord, Lord Montagu of Beaulieu, 12 such modifications have so far been made and five are in the process of being made.

Baroness SHARP

My Lords, does the noble Lord really deny that the three-wheeled vehicle, however carefully driven, is in some degree more dangerous that a four-wheeled car in some conditions of wind and weather? Does the noble Lord further deny that the great majority of drivers of three-wheelers would very much prefer a four-wheeled car which is cheaper?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I do not know upon what the noble Baroness bases her statement that the majority of owners of three-wheeled tricycles would prefer a four-wheeled car. I emphasised that, so far as the three-wheeler is concerned, it is specially adapted to meet extreme needs among disabled people and it would be very difficult to do this with certain types of cars.

Baroness SHARP

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware of the amount of evidence which has come from the majority of disabled drivers to the effect that they prefer a car? Further, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that among the war pensioners who have a choice, 95 per cent. would prefer to have a car? Is not this evidence?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I am fully aware that the noble Baroness undertook an inquiry into this matter, but the Government have to face the fact that there are a vast number of disabled people, and what one wants to do is to make available to the greatest number of people some means of mechanical propulsion. This is precisely what the Government are trying to do. I have to point out to your Lordships, and to the noble Baroness in particular, that if we took the advice contained in her Report we should be restricting the use of a car to those people who wanted to use it for work purposes. We are trying to make available to a much larger number of people the means of mobility over a greater area.

Lord LEATHERLAND

My Lords, would my noble friend perhaps agree that the simplest way out of this difficulty would be to say to each disabled person: "Do you want a three-wheeled vehicle or a four-wheeled vehicle?"

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, it may be the simple way out, but one has to take into account the question of cost. What we have done so far, and what previous Governments have done in the past, is to make available to dis ables people a grant for a car for the purpose of getting about.

Lord BYERS

My Lords, would the noble Lord accept the fact that when I was a Member of the Minister's Advisory Committee in 1947 we were given the same sort of answers as we have been given today; and that the preference expressed then was for the four-wheeler as against the three-wheeler?

The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord SHEPHERD)

My Lords, may I suggest that this is a subject of great interest to your Lordships, and that in view of the number of speakers who wish to participate it may be better to take it further on another occasion and move now to the next Question? We have a long list of speakers for our later business.