APPROPRIATION (No. 2) (NORTHERN IRELAND) ORDER 1974 (Hansard, 10 December 1974)

§ Lord BELSTEAD
My Lords, on the last of these Northern Ireland Orders today, there is one general question which I should like to put to the noble Lord. This Order, as the noble Lord explained, deals with some detailed sums of money which are scrutinised, I presume, by the Northern Ireland Department of Finance which, before Prorogation, was one of the Departments of the Northern Ireland Executive. Therefore these sums of money certainly went under the scrutiny of a Northern Ireland Department which had a Northern Ireland Head of Department. The question I want to ask the noble Lord is this: Is it not time that the Secretary of State considered providing some form of advisory committee so that he is not isolated from the views of people in Northern Ireland concerning legislation, which after all affects them, and so that Northern Ireland can see at first hand how money is being spent on services within the Province?
The kind of thing I find worrying and which I can foresee arising is what was referred to in a recent issue of Ulster Commentary, which said that the former Youth Employment Service—and education comes within this Order—was to be absorbed into a new all-age guidance and placement unit within the Northern Ireland Department of Manpower Services, and that both educational and industrial interests are to be represented on a new Youth Careers Guidance Committee. All this is going to require legislation, and presumably it will be by means of Order. This may well be right, but it is an important departure from existing practice in Northern Ireland. Therefore I should like to ask: In the interests of those affected by forthcoming legislation in Northern Ireland, and in the interests of those of us who are affected by the legislation because we are asked 594 to consider it here at Westminster, is it not desirable now that the noble Lord's right honourable friend should consider that such Orders be looked at in Northern Ireland between the time that they are drafted by the Government Departments there and the time they are presented at Westminster?
I would only add that I have raised this point before with the noble Lord, though I deliberately have not pressed it because I realised the Government were bringing forward plans for the forthcoming Convention. However, it seems that the holding of the Convention and the ending of direct rule may be some time away, and it is for this reason and, having in mind that presumably further Orders are in the pipeline, that I venture to raise this matter again.

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGSBRIDGE
My Lords, the noble Lord has raised a perfectly fair question. I should like to answer it in a rather roundabout way by saying that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has recently let it be known that in conjunction with the right honourable gentleman the Leader of the House, he is considering setting up some kind of Northern Ireland committee. Details have not yet been released; but just as Northern Ireland is a part of this country it has its Parliamentary representatives, and provided they are represented in this way, that proposal might go some way towards answering the noble Lord's question. This is at the moment in hand, and I am inclined to think that an announcement has been made, though I have not had time to check that.
Secondly, once again I will report to my right honourable friend what the noble Lord has said. I did so last time and he was not ready to go into the matter in detail, for the reasons that the noble Lord has given. I think the answer may well be the same now, but such a course would require legislation—I am sure the noble Lord realises that—and there is a good deal of resistance to it. I think it is important to remember that Northern Ireland representatives in Westminster are going to be organised into some sort of committee in order to deal with these matters.

§ Lord SLATER
My Lords, would my noble friend state whether or not in 595 another place the Government have been under severe pressure from representatives of that part of the United Kingdom in regard to private industry such as Harland and Wolff?—because many of us who come from there to here well remember the number of representations that were made to various Governments concerning the shipbuilding industry, which was responsible for a very large amount of employment within that part of the United Kingdom, and that they never missed a trick, so far as Governments were concerned, in regard to support grants for such a type of industry in Northern Ireland.

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGE
My Lords, I am not absolutely clear about the question which the noble Lord is asking. If he thinks that Northern Ireland business men never miss a trick, I think he is probably right—and good luck to them! But I do not think that is perhaps exactly what he meant. There are pressures, but of a perfectly normal kind, to assist major businesses that run into cash problems anywhere. I do not think that the problems of Harland and Wolff need to be looked at very differently from those of other major firms elsewhere; nor do I think that the Northern Ireland lobby is more effective than other lobbies; they all work hard.

§ Lord GARDINER
My Lords, I should like to ask my noble friend one question. These amounts, naturally, are mostly increases: indeed there are only three decreases. Why is the largest decrease under the heading of employment, training, rehabilitation and resettlement services? If my noble friend cannot give the answer today, perhaps he will be good enough to let me know later.

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGE
My Lords, I cannot tell my noble and learned friend today. What I can tell him is that these figures are bulk figures and certainly do not represent a decrease in the resettlement, after-care side of our business.