§ 2.48 p.m.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will take steps to control the activities of the armament companies and their intermediaries who negotiate arms sales to the Middle East, including sales through Jordan to South Africa and Rhodesia, on which vast profits are made.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMHer Majesty's Government take all possible steps to control the activities to which the noble Lord is referring. In the case which he has in mind, British equipment 407 acquired by the Jordanian Government for the use of its own armed forces was subsequently sold to an armament dealer who disposed of the equipment to South Africa. The Jordanian Government has now explained the background to this incident, which it deeply regrets, and has given assurances that in future it will dispose of British equipment only after consultation with Her Majesty's Government.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. May I first ask whether the Government have replied to the very detailed documentation made to them by the Guardian? Secondly, is it not the case that these armaments were provided under assumed names, and that Centurion tanks were sent to Jordan as earth-moving tractors? Also, may I ask whether any of these armaments were made in this country? If they were not, were they licensed to other countries under the condition that they should not be sold to a third country?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, there is a standard drill on this matter. All equipment supplied by the Ministry of Defence to an overseas Government is for the sole use of the customer country, and should not be re-sold to a third party without Her Majesty's Government's agreement. When it is considered appropriate, firms are asked to include a similar restriction in their contracts. What happened in Jordan was that a junior official in the procurement agency disposed of these tanks to the arms dealer to whom I have referred, that the matter was noticed by the Guardian newspaper, and that Her Majesty's Government considered the allegation sufficiently accurate to make an inquiry. As a result of that inquiry the breach of agreement was discovered. The Jordanian Government have apologised to Her Majesty's Government and have undertaken that nothing similar should happen in the future.
§ Lord SHINWELL. My Lords, am I to understand from my noble friend's Answer—that part of it in which he said that Her Majesty's Government are seeking to control the sale of arms to Middle East countries—that no arms are being sold to Middle East countries? If so, when did we cease to sell arms to Middle East countries?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, as the noble Lord is very well aware the sale of arms in that area is a matter of great sensitivity. Her Majesty's Government have taken great care that nothing that we do in future will prejudice any move towards a settlement of the critical situation in the Middle East.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, while being grateful for that answer, may I say that I think my noble friend might be a little more specific. Does it follow from that answer that Her Majesty's Government have ceased to sell arms of any kind to Middle East countries?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that is another question. I was talking about past sales.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, could the noble Lord say whether the USSR, when they supplied vast quantities of arms to Syria and 2,000 modern tanks to Iraq, did this openly, or did they disguise them as earth-moving equipment?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that also is another question, but I think there is nothing hidden in the matter.
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, with reference to the answer given to my noble friend, may I ask whether the noble Lord is aware that we were told only a few days ago that we were continuing to supply arms to Jordan, having received an assurance that this would not happen again? If we received an assurance before we supplied the first lot, and if it be true—and perhaps the noble Lord will confirm this—that these armaments were sent to South Africa and were redirected to Rhodesia, and contained some sophisticated weapons which might very seriously affect the security of Southern Africa, why are we going on supplying these arms to Jordan on a mere verbal undertaking from the same source as that from which the last one came?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, may I suggest that if the noble Lord feels so keenly he should put down a Question? He stated that there is a verbal assurance. I am certain that Her Majesty's Government do not deal in verbal assurances.
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I did put down a Question on precisely this point, and that I withdrew it in deference to the noble Lord who had a similar Question on the same point?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMNo, my Lords.
§ Lord HARVEY of PRESTBURYMy Lords, has the noble Lord read the report in today's Press that British Leyland are in the process of signing an agreement with the Egyptian Government to build a motor car plant there, and have given—according to the Press—an undertaking not to supply commercial vehicles to Israel? If it is to come about that commercial companies are to give undertakings not to supply commercial vehicles to another country, surely this situation ought to be looked at.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that again is another question.
§ Baroness SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend this question? If countries in different parts of the world observe that if they are in breach of an agreement we will be satisfied with an apology and that there will be no sanction applied, will that not encourage them to treat their agreements with us with some contempt?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I am afraid that even in Jordan human error creeps in, and this was such a case.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, does my noble friend realise that, with great respect to him and while in no means blaming him, I do not accept—and I am saying this quite deliberately—that Her Majesty's Government are not selling arms to Middle East countries?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I never said that. I was talking in answer to my noble friend about a past contract. If noble Lords want to know about present policy will they please put down a Question?
Lord JANNERMy Lords, does my noble friend realise that a breach of this kind, made in respect of an undertaking given to us, is used by other countries, such as Libya, as an argument for being 410 provided with arms from other countries and using them for the purpose of attacking Israel through Egypt, and in other ways? Is it not extremely important, whatever may be the reason for Jordan's having done it, that we should realise that we should set an example in these matters and should take such steps as will make it clear to the rest of the world that such breaches of undertakings cannot be treated lightly?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, we do not live in a perfect world. As I said, it was an error by a junior member of the Jordan Administration which led to this mistake, for which the Jordan Government have apologised.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, when my noble friend advises me to put down a Question, which is what he just did, is he aware that it is the custom, the practice, of Her Majesty's Government, or indeed of any Government, when a Question is asked about the provision of arms to any country, to answer that these facts are never disclosed in public? Is that so?
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, reverting to my own Question, may I ask the Minister this further supplementary? Is not a much closer investigation of this whole incident necessary in view of what has been established? If Her Majesty's Government allowed these armaments to go to Jordan, why were they sent under a camouflage? Why, when the consignment of Hawker Hunters was exported, was it described as an hotel? Does not this scandal require much closer investigation than Her Majesty's Government appear to have given it at present?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the noble Lord has made an assertion of which I know nothing.
§ Lord BROCKWAYThen I ask the Minister——
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I ask the Minister whether he has read the documentation from the Guardian? This statement was made there and has not been contradicted.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I think noble Lords in all parts of the House have 411 had a very good run on this matter. It is indeed a very serious question and Her Majesty's Government take it very seriously. But as we have a great deal to do this afternoon I think it might be better if we left it there.