HL Deb 03 December 1974 vol 355 cc67-70

2.59 p.m.

Earl FERRERS

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question of which I have given Her Majesty's Government Private Notice. The Question is as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they intend to take to ensure that there are adequate supplies of bread for the nation.

The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of INDUSTRY (Lord BESWICK)

My Lords, I understand that the independent Conciliation and Arbitration Service has been discussing the situation with both sides today. The Government will be keeping in close touch with events.

Earl FERRERS

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that Answer. Would not he agree that, even if the Government are not a party to the dispute, they have, as all Governments have, a direct responsibility to ensure that there is adequate food, and particularly this commodity, which affects those who are least well off?

I would ask the noble Lord three questions, if I may: first, what positive action will the Government take if the dispute is not settled by the weekend, because there must be contingency plans? Secondly, what arrangements are being made to ensure that there are adequate supplies of flour to the shops, because people will now start to bake their own bread? In view of the fact that baking flour and yeast have gone up by 500 per cent. already, I should be grateful if the noble Lord could reply to that question. Thirdly, as shops are already short of sugar, salt, flour, bread, and even water biscuits, what assurance will he give that cakes, and other biscuits, will also not end up in short supply?

Lord BESWICK

My Lords, on the latter part of the question I can give no assurance, and the noble Earl is aware that I can give no assurance. When I made inquiries about a quarter of an hour ago the talks were still continuing. I do not believe that it would be helpful for me to speak about contingency planning at this stage.

Earl FERRERS

My Lords, does the noble Lord mean that there are no plans for the supplying of bread or alternative foods before the weekend, or afterwards?

Lord BESWICK

My Lords, the noble Earl has rightly said that the Government have a responsibility, but they have not a responsibility to intervene in an industrial dispute of this kind. There is an industrial dispute and efforts are being made to solve it, and I should have thought that the noble Earl would agree on reflection that it would be better to see whether we can get a solution to the problem.

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, does not the Minister agree that it is the Government's duty to see that food of the most common and essential kind is available to all kinds of families in this country?; Is not this a further justification for prudent housewives to store food when the Government have failed to ensure adequate supplies?

Lord BESWICK

My Lords, I recognise that bread is an emotive subject, and obviously one would like to think that the poorer families in the country, who, after all, eat most bread, will be supplied. The production at the moment appears to be about 25 per cent. of normal. This would not provide the sort of supply necessary for any system of rationing. As I have already said, the answer to this problem must be to get some solution to the industrial dispute. There are discussions going on, and I suggest that we leave it at that for the moment.

Lord BLYTON

My Lords, is the Minister aware that if there is a shortage they ought to see Mrs. Thatcher, who is now food hoarding? Can my noble friend assure us that there will be a plentiful supply of flour, so that working class people at least can bake their own bread?

Lord BESWICK

My Lords, instituting a system of rationing is not something that can be done overnight, and I am sure that everyone will agree about this. I understand that many of the shopkeepers are in fact already voluntarily carrying out a system of rationing of their own, and I should have thought that this was the right way to go about it at the present time.

Lord DERWENT

My Lords, while of course I understand why the noble Lord does not want to say anything about intervening at this stage in an industrial dispute, could not he answer the simple question put by my noble friend? If this dispute goes on, have the Government any plans, or have they no plans, for seeing that supplies will be available?

Lord BESWICK

My Lords, I do not think at this point I ought to add anything to what I have already said. The best way of dealing with this is by encouraging a solution of the wages dispute.

Lord SLATER

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that I agree with the sentiments expressed by my noble friend Lord Blyton in regard to adequate supplies of flour? Coming from an industrial area, I can say that our womenfolk are able to bake their own bread, given the accommodation and if they can find the yeast for sale on the shop counters. Is my noble friend further aware, arising from the original Question, that the noble Earl should be reminded that "man does not live by bread alone"?

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, may I ask the Government, seriously, if there is an industrial dispute and this is the reason for the shortage of bread, whether some consideration is being given by the Government to offering financial support to those families that cannot afford to buy alternative foods, because if they cannot buy bread they will have to buy something more expensive? Will the Government take into consideration the financial situation caused by the shortage?

Lord BESWICK

My Lords as the noble Baroness knows, the Government have already taken into consideration the cost of bread to the families of this country and there is already a subsidy. This subsidy does not command, I might say, universal support in this House, but we have done something there. Certainly if there was a possibility of a prolongation of this dispute, then something would have to be done.

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, surely the noble Lord knows that there is only a subsidy on the bread you buy, and if you cannot buy it the subsidy is ineffec- tive. What you want is money in the pockets of the person who cannot buy bread now, and who must buy something else.

Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE

My Lords, if the noble Lord feels that he is unable to add to his Answer today, will not he take into account the manifest anxiety of the House in this matter and promise to make a further Statement tomorrow?

Lord BESWICK

My Lords, certainly I will promise to make a further Statement.

Earl FERRERS

My Lords, can the noble Lord say something about the position with regard to flour? Are the supplies adequate, or not?

Lord BESWICK

My Lords, I am not sure what the noble Earl means. Adequate for what? If he means, are they adequate to replace the amount of bread which would be needed tomorrow, and if he is asking me whether that flour is in the shops now, I should have thought that the answer was probably, No.

Lord STRANGE

My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that this is a very good moment to make the bakers return some of the valuable by-products they are taking out to make the bread white and selling for other purposes, and that these by-products should go to the people they are designed for?

The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord SHEPHERD)

My Lords, I suspect that that is a rather different Question to the one put by the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers. I hope that the noble Earl, in responding to the answer of my noble friend about a future Statement, will allow for some consultation as to whether a Statement is appropriate. I would certainly undertake to have consultations through the usual channels.