§ 2.42 p.m.
§ LORD O'HAGANMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what plans they have to increase democratic control over the E.E.C.
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS)My Lords, the need for greater democratic control over Community institutions will be 3 examined in the context of renegotiation policy as a whole and will subsequently be considered in the light of the results obtained. In the meantime, this House has already passed a Motion to appoint a Select Committee to consider Community Proposals, and in another place preparations are well advanced to implement the main recommendations of the Select Committee on European Community Secondary Legislation.
§ LORD O'HAGANMy Lords, will the noble Lord accept that the Select Committees on European legislation of this House and the other place are another matter and are different from democratic control at the European level? Will be also accept that at that level there is no time for delay? If the Government are not going to come forward with their own proposals in this field, bearing in mind what happened to King Charles, will they look favourably on proposals coming forward from others, either in this House or in another place?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord will agree with me that the measures now being taken to ensure that both Houses have proper supervision of proposals emanating from the Community are wise and democratic precautions to take. On the noble Lord's second point, I entirely agree that, as renegotiation proceeds, we as a Government shall actively consider the question he has raised; that is to say, the democratic control of whatever system appertains in the Community as it emerges from our discussions with them.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, in the Government's review of the democratic procedures to which the noble Lord has just alluded, can be say whether any consideration will be given, at last, to the proposition that Members sent from either House of Parliament to Strasbourg should be elected by their respective Houses and not simply appointed through the Whips Offices?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, that is clearly another question for future consideration.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, in supporting the noble Earl, Lord Lauderdale, on this point, does not the Minister think that until we have elected 4 members to the European Parliament the man in the street will never understand democracy in the E.E.C. at all?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, that is certainly a point which in due course will commend itself to the attention of all. The question of the shape and nature of any democratic body which will supervise, or indeed control, the workings of the Community must, in our view, await the completion of our current renegotiations.
§ LORD ROBBINSMy Lords, from the replies that the noble Lord has given, is one to understand that some disposition towards democratic control on the part of the other partners in the E.E.C. might induce some predisposition in favour of continued membership of that Community?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, so far as I follow the noble Lord's suggestion, I can say that we are of been before the Council of Ministers. In that way we are considering the proposals now on the table for improving procedures in the European Assembly, but only contingently on our succeeding in our renegotiations with our partners in the E.E.C. course quite properly studying package proposals which have for some months
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, contingently on that decision, could not the noble Lord give us a clear answer "yes" or "no" on the proposition that representatives of Parliament being sent to Strasbourg should be elected and not nominated?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, clearly that is a matter for consideration and debate. It is conceivable that representation could be direct or indirect. We are not at the moment in a position to give an answer "yes" or "no" to that proposition.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, is the Minister saying that this matter will be considered sympathetically?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am saying that it will be considered fully.
§ LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords is it not 5 the case that the Minister is saying absolutely nothing at all?
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, are we to take it from the supplementary questions that have been asked in regard to this particular Question on the Order Paper that the E.E.C. is a democratic organisation at the present moment of time? As it was set up under Professor Halstein, are we to assume that it is a democratic organisation? Is that what noble Lords really believe is the E.E.C.?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I imagine that that is a question for the noble Lords to whom it was addressed and not for me.
§ LORD HALEMy Lords, if we are going to talk about democracy, would it not be better to stop talking about a European Parliament which does not exist, and never has existed? It is a consultative assembly. Consultative assemblies can do useful work; but whether it is worth while having European elections for a consultative assembly which can take no decisions but merely make recommendations which can be wholly ignored, is material to the whole question of democracy.
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, my noble friend has shown in his question that this is a matter for considerable and careful discussion. Views on what the constitution and powers of such an assembly should be would vary greatly, and it is not by way of instant question and answer that I would hope to be of any assistance to your Lordships' House in this matter.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware that at the last meeting of the European Assembly, which we are discussing, according to the Press reports one delegate from this country, a Member of this noble House, referred to another delegate from this country, another Member of this noble House, as a "twit"? Does he not think that some control ought to be exercised there?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I should think that that would be a matter for the Speaker of that Assembly rather than for me.