NAMIBIA: WORKING CONDITIONS AND WAGES (Hansard, 10 April 1974)

§ LORD BROCKWAY
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS)
My Lords, the admirable report on the conditions and wages of African workers in British firms in South Africa was prepared by a Parliamentary sub-committee. It would be for Parliament rather than Her Majesty's Government to decide whether a similar inquiry should be conducted in the case of Namibia.

§ LORD BROCKWAY
My Lords, in thanking my noble friend for his Answer, may I ask him whether his attention has been drawn to the report by the exiled Bishop of Damaraland which shows that, bad as wages are in South Africa, they 1218 are much worse in Namibia. In the case of three companies the figures are: in South Africa £33 a month, in Namibia less than £20 a month; in another case, £40 a month in South Africa, £15 in Namibia; and in a third case, miners, £31 a month in South Africa; less than £20 in Namibia. In view of the fact that the United Nations has declared Namibia to be independent of South Africa, is there not a particular reason why this investigation should be made?

§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, I certainly take note of what my noble friend has said. At the moment I cannot identify the publication he mentioned at the beginning of his supplementary question. I shall most certainly study the figures that he has given. As to the need for a separate inquiry into the position of Namibia, your Lordships' House will of course know that this is within the competence of the appropriate Select Committee as set up by Parliament.

§ LORD HALE
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that these figures have been published in the national Press (in the respectable part of the national Press, so far as there is one now) and that they are serious? Is he also aware that this is not an inquiry relating only to Namibia, but an inquiry relating to companies registered in Britain, operating in Britain, deriving their trade mainly from Britain, and who carry British reputation with them all over the world? It is an appalling state of affairs.

§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE
My Lords, while approving—may I ask whether the noble Lord would prefer to reply first?

§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord will allow me first to answer the supplementary question of my noble friend Lord Hale, after which I shall be most glad to listen to the noble Lord. In no way do I deny or challenge the authenticity or correctness of the figures that have been adduced to-day. I said that we shall need to study them, and I shall certainly do so, and I hope to consult my noble friend about the sources and indeed the nature of these figures and their implication.

§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE
My Lords, while approving of Lord 1219 Brockway's benevolent intention, may I ask whether the Minister will represent to this Committee in another place that they had better round the job off and inquire about wages in Russia, in Greece, in Chile and in any other country where the noble Lords dislike parts of the régime?

§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, the noble Lord has made his point. The Question was addressed to the position in Namibia, and within the limits of my capacity I tried to answer it.

§ EARL COWLEY
My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that it would be useful to have an inquiry into the wage rates being paid by British companies to Africans in independent black African countries so that a useful comparison could be made?

§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, quite possibly. I must repeat that the Committee set up by Parliament is quite competent. I mean the word "competent" in that it has the power to move, if it so wishes, to inquire into one or other country, region, or territory.

§ LORD BLYTON
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware—

§ LORD BARNBY
My Lords, in thanking—

§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHEPHERD)
My Lords, may I suggest that my noble friend Lord Blyton should put his question, followed by the noble Lord, Lord Barnby? In that way we shall not have this "to and fro" across the table.

§ LORD BLYTON
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Question does not talk about Chile or Russia? Does he not consider that wages like this paid to miners in a place in South Africa are really disgraceful? Cannot the Tory Party get up and admit that?

§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, I should hope that there would be a general consensus that these conditions would be deprecated by all sections of this House, and indeed by the Parliament and people of this country. I entirely agree with what my noble friend has just said.

§ LORD BARNBY
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his repetition of the assurance that he gave in the House last week, that this is not a matter for Government. Since he has assured the House that it is his intention to recommend an investigation into wages in South-West Africa and therefore expend public funds, can he say to how many other countries in Southern Africa where wages are still lower such an investigation would apply? Overall have we not enough trouble on our hands without causing diplomatic irritation elsewhere?

§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, on the first point the noble Lord has raised, it is not for me to recommend that a certain investigation should be conducted. As I said, it is a Parliamentary rather than a Governmental initiative. Therefore we must await the actions and the decisions of the Expenditure Committee, who may or may not decide to hold such an inquiry as my noble friend suggested. Regarding the second point, at the moment I have not detailed, precise information as to the position in other comparable territories. If the noble Lord cares to put down a Question I will do my best to help him.

§ LORD BROCKWAY
My Lords, referring to my noble friend's first reply to me in which he said that this is a matter for Parliament, may I ask whether he is aware that the Select Committee in another place took the view that Namibia was outside its terms of reference, as the United Nations had declared it to be an independent country? In view of that fact, would Her Majesty's Government raise within the United Nations itself the possibility of this kind of investigation?

§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, we have more than once raised the question of Namibia. As my noble friend and your Lordships know, this has been very much a continuing matter, at least since 1920. The legal basis of the Mandate has been constantly discussed, I regret fruitlessly, at more than one international gathering, particularly in the United Nations Organisation. On the question of whether Namibia was ruled out by the Select Committee, that may be so. But there is nothing to prevent them from ruling it back into their consideration.