HL Deb 10 April 1974 vol 350 cc1224-7

3.5 p.m.

VISCOUNT HANWORTH

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will consider providing funds for the major political Parties so as to decrease their moral and financial dependence on money obtained from other sources.

THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH)

My Lords, the gracious Speech made it clear that the Government will consider the provision of financial assistance to enable Opposition Parties to fulfill their Parliamentary functions more effectively.

VISCOUNT HANWORTH

My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for that very satisfactory reply. May I ask him whether he realises that I have a Motion on the Order Paper to ask the Government to consider other matters which may help in the increased efficiency of our democratic system?

LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE

My Lords, did the Minister say that the Government might provide money for the Opposition? Why only the Opposition?

LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH

My Lords, I think these proposals were put forward in the gracious Speech because Opposition Parties inevitably find themselves in substantially greater difficulties than when in Government. That is why it was felt appropriate to have this matter considered as early as possible.

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we on this side of the House very much welcome the reference in the gracious Speech to the Government's seeking to find ways of providing financial assistance for Opposition Parties. We hope that the noble Lord the Leader of the House, in consultation with noble Lords on the Liberal Benches and with the Front Bench on this side of the House, will find some ways of strengthening the facilities which are available to us while we are in Opposition.

LORD GLADWYN

My Lords, while associating myself with what the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, has just said, may I ask whether the Government intend to provide funds in proportion to the number of votes which each Party received at the last General Election?

LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH

My Lords, this is one of the many interesting questions which can be considered when these talks take place.

BARONESS GAITSKELL

My Lords, is it not true to say, considering all the needs and the pressures on this Government, that if there are politicians who cannot withstand moral and financial dependence on other sources, they should be weeded out? Is it not also true that even if Members of Parliament are not paid as much as, say, Congressmen in America, their salary is not exactly what one would call a peppercorn salary?

LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH

My Lords, all these questions can be considered when the talks take place.

LORD DAVIES OF LEEK

My Lords, are the Government aware that the obscurity of this Question is such that one does not know whether the Government will subsidise political Parties to fight Elections? If that is intended, I presume that if I borrowed £500 from my noble friend Lord Shepherd to put 500 mavericks into Parliament and got 50 of them in, I could claim this aid. If this proposal means that any Opposition Members will get help and the same inside knowledge to be able to ask constructive questions and to know what is going on in the Government, then I am for it. Nevertheless, nothing could more encourage damned intellectualism than a damned silly proposition like this.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, perhaps my noble friend will advise me later whether that was in fact a question. I suggest that we now proceed to the next business.

LORD WIGG

My Lords, before we pass on to the next business may I say that I hope that the Government will give serious consideration to the grievous consequences to democracy that might ensue if grants from public funds should be given to what are called "Parties", for that will strengthen immeasurably the power of the Whips which, if I may say so with great respect to both sides, will not work for the efficiency of the House. Will the Government, before they start giving money to Parties, provide sufficient facilities in this House to enable any noble Lords who want to take this place seriously, and not as a place for the dead who remain unburied, to do their job efficiently?

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, I will take careful note of what my noble friend has said. I do not think that the latter part of his question arises on the Question before the House, but I will take note of his comments.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, will my noble friend consider the possibility of a proliferation of Opposition Parties if it is known that the Government are ready to finance them through the taxpayers? What is to be the criterion? Is it to be determined by numbers or by electoral votes? Is this not, after all, a cockeyed idea?

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, I did suggest that we should move to the next Business. In view of the interest of my noble friend Lord Shinwell, the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, and the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, this might be a matter upon which we could have a short debate. Then other noble Lords apart from the Leaders of the political Parties, might have an opportunity of expressing their views on this topical subject.