§ 3.9 p.m.
§ LORD BETHELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what truth there is in recent reports that they intend to make a further substantial reduction in funds available to the external services of the B.B.C.
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS)My Lords, no such decisions bearing on the B.B.C. External Services have been taken. Her Majesty's Government are very conscious of the importance of these services. They have, of course, to keep their cost under review, like all other items of public expenditure.
§ LORD BETHELLMy Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for that somewhat reassuring reply. Can he further assure me that, before any decision is made which could quite possibly emasculate the External Services of the B.B.C., proper information will be collected and considered about the huge audiences which these broadcasts enjoy abroad, the extent to which they provide reliable information in countries where the media are censored and where information is restricted, and the great contribution they make to knowledge of British industry and, consequently, to British exports?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I can certainly give that assurance. We are very conscious of the points which the noble Lord has raised.
§ LORD HILL OF LUTONMy Lords, will the noble Lord and his right honourable friend, in considering any recommendations of officials on this subject, take into account that in the financial year now beginning there are modest but appreciable cuts already determined, resulting in the end of the Caribbean Service and a reduction in the English to Africa Service; secondly, that a cut of 10 per cent., which I understand is being considered, would, because of the difficulty of reducing overheads, result in a 30 to 40 per cent. cut in the output of the Services; and thirdly, that a severe cut in such Services would give pleasure only to those dictatorships of the Right and Left which resent the impartial and thruthful character of the B.B.C.'s Services which is an important element in maintaining this country's prestige overseas?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I entirely and warmly agree with what the noble Lord, who speaks from a position of considerable experience, has said about the value to this country, and indeed to the Free World and beyond the Free World, of these Services. I can assure him that all the considerations he has advanced will be borne very fully in mind by the Government if and when they consider any proposals for reduction.
§ LORD MAYBRAY-KINGMy Lords, especially after what has come from the mouth of my noble friend, Lord Hill of Luton, may I ask whether the noble Lord is aware that those of us who travel abroad know how deep and precious is the impact of the B.B.C.'s Services on the world to-day, as it was during the Second World War?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, many noble Lords and noble Baronesses will share with my noble friend the experience of having seen and heard for themselves how this Service has contributed to sanity and decency throughout the world because it has adhered always to a high standard of truth.
§ LORD FERRIERMy Lords, the noble Lord may not recall but perhaps he would check that in this House over the last year it has been asked several times that expenditure on the Overseas Services should not be cut but should be increased. Further, do the Government 1024 appreciate that there are many people in this country with old colleagues, old comrades, old friends and old pensioners in India who greatly appreciate news from Bellati on the Urdu and Gujurati broadcasts?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, however attractive, that is quite another question.
§ LORD GOODMANMy Lords, will the noble Lord, viewing the matter from a slightly different aspect, urge upon his colleagues that they should act in splendid contrast to all previous Governments and remember that it is very easy to destroy institutions and very difficult to establish them? Nothing is more damaging to the morale of the staff employed than the notion that they may be employed one day and dismissed the next because something on which they have expended dedication, devotion and endless time is whizzed away because the Government of the day decide on a change of financial policy.
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I certainly take the point raised by the noble Lord.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, can my noble friend say whether the cuts which have been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, have been initiated in the past four or five weeks, since the present Government came into office, or were they initiated prior to that?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the reductions to which I take it the noble Lord is referring were in fact made by the last Administration in consultation with the B.B.C. and amount to something like £730,000. These will be operative after to-morrow; that is to say, in the 1974–75 financial year.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, can the Minister clear my mind on one point? I understood from the noble Lord, Lord Hill, that cuts had already been made, whereas I understand from the Minister that cuts are not being made. Which of these points of view represent the actual fact?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, cuts were agreed by the last Administration, in consultation with the 1025 B.B.C., and are applicable to the forthcoming financial year, 1974–75. I said that no proposals had yet been decided on by us in regard to any further cuts.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, following the excellent precedent of the Government's action in regard to museum charges, overturning the decision of the previous Administration, will the noble Lord bear in mind and report to his colleagues that this is a matter on which quite clearly the whole of your Lordships' House feels strongly?
§ LORD SHACKLETONThis is something on which any Government, including the previous Government, would find it necessary to take account of the opinions of your Lordships.
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am quite sure that the feelings and views expressed on this matter, both here and in another place, will be very carefully considered by Her Majesty's Government.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, has my noble friend observed the silence on the Opposition Front Bench, and can be account for it?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it is impossible to resist the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, and that one has great sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, because when Governments ask for cuts in expenditure it is nearly always information services which people think are not important, and many of us fight quite hard to keep these information services in being? Therefore, may I ask the noble Lord whether in any future consideration he will, in consultation with the B.B.C., consider the possibility of a further streamlining of overheads?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I reciprocate the expression of sympathy extended by the noble Baroness. I think I know what she went through earlier this year when, in consultation with the B.B.C., she agreed to a reduction of £730,000 for the next fin- 1026 ancial year. I hope to do at least as well by the B.B.C. as she did.
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHEPHERD)My Lords, I suspect that the message your Lordships wish to convey to Her Majesty's Government has been well and truly expressed and therefore I suggest we move to another Question.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, I should like to ask a final question—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order!
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I am entirely in the hands of the House. I made a suggestion, but if the noble Lord wishes to pursue his question I think he will need again the agreement of your Lordships' House. However, I hope he will accept that we have pursued this matter, the message is now loud and clear and we should proceed to the next Question.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, I just wanted to ask—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order!
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I think the noble Lord should bear in mind what I apprehend are the wishes of your Lordships' House. I am very sorry; I am equally embarrassed with the noble Lord, because if I had been on the other side of the House I should have wished to pursue the matter. But I feel I must bear in mind the interests of the House. The other day we spent some 27 minutes on Questions, and I am afraid we are running the risk of doing so again this afternoon.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he would not agree that, if the House proceeds in this way at Question Time, we are getting closer and closer to what occurs in another place, which has found it necessary to have a Speaker, and therefore it is in the interests of every one of us that we should take the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I hope it would be over all our dead bodies that we should ever have to proceed to such a position. Therefore I hope that we may now proceed to the next Question.