HL Deb 03 April 1974 vol 350 cc932-9

3.33 p.m.

THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS)

My Lords, I should like with the leave of the House to repeat a Statement that is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs about the meeting of Foreign Ministers in Luxembourg on April 1 and 2. The Statement reads as follows:

"With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I will make a statement about the meeting of the Council of Foreign Ministers in Luxembourg on the 1st and 2nd of April.

"Before I begin my report on my visit to Luxembourg, I should like to express the Government's deepest sympathy with the French people at the tragic death of President Pompidou. He was a great French leader who has earned a place of prominence and distinction in the history of France and the world. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has sent messages to the French Prime Minister and to Madame Pompidou and I have sent a personal message to the French Foreign Minister, Monsieur Jobert. I am certain the House will wish to join with me in offering our most heartfelt condolences to Madame Pompidou and to the people of France at this moment of sorrow and loss.

"On Monday afternoon in Luxembourg I made a statement outlining the broad scope of the issues on which the Government seek a renegotiation of the terms of entry into the Community. They include the unfairness of Britain's budgetary contribution, the effect of the C.A.P. on this country, the need to safeguard the interests of the Commonwealth and of the developing countries and certain problems of the British economy. The statement has been published as a Command White Paper.

"In the discussions that followed the members of the Council took note of the position of the Government of the United Kingdom. Some inevitably saw greater difficulties than did others. But on more than one topic the response was clearly sympathetic. No one doubts that difficult negotiations lie ahead. Nor I think does anyone doubt our good faith in the conduct of the negotiations. The first step has been taken. We and the other members of the Community are now preparing for the second step when the Government of the United Kingdom will place before the Council our detailed proposals. Renegotiation has begun.

"In the course of my statement I made clear to the Council that we shall continue to participate in Community business pending the outcome of renegotiation, subject only to our renegotiating position not being prejudiced. The Secretary of State for Trade, the Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and I therefore took part in the discussion of a number of detailed items on the Council agenda. I am having a summary account of the outcome of these discussions placed in the Library of the House.

"Late on Monday night and on Tuesday there was an important discussion about political relations between the Nine members of the Community and other countries, particularly the United States. Most of the members present were largely agreed on the vital need to maintain the closest relations with the United States and on the means of doing this. Unfortunately we were unable to achieve unanimity, which I much regret. There will be further discussions about this in a few weeks' time when I hope further progress will be possible."

My Lords, that concludes the Statement. I know that your Lordships would wish me to associate this House with everything that my right honourable friend has said about President Pompidou and will wish to join with me in offering our most heartfelt condolences to Mme. Pompidou and the people of France at this tragic moment.

3.39 p.m.

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, I should like to thank the Minister for his Statement, and also to associate my noble friends on this side of the House with the tribute that has been paid to a most distinguished and courageous President of France. He was a very good friend of this country. We should certainly like to convey our condolences to Mme. Pompidou, to her son and also to the people of France.

My Lords, in turning to the Statement, is the Minister aware that the mild tone of the Statement conceals the disastrous impression created by the Foreign Secretary at the Council of Ministers' meeting? Taken with the White Paper to which the Statement referred, is the noble Lord also aware that it appears that the Foreign Secretary would not regard the Treaties as binding if he did not get his way? This was described as "a breach of contract" by the President of the European Parliament, whom the right honourable gentleman rudely refused to receive. Is the Minister further aware that some changes such as those in the Common Agricultural Policy were already under discussion, and might be supported, if only we knew what they were? Therefore, we shall have to wait for the detailed proposals. Lastly, is the Minister aware that the whole tone of the Foreign Secretary's blunt performance seemed to take no account of the Community's interest, and is therefore the worst possible way in which to enlist our European colleagues' support?

LORD LLOYD OF KILGERRAN

My Lords, in the course of my speech I have already expressed our condolences to the family of President Pompidou and also to the people of France. As I said, he will have a great place in modern French history.

I thank the noble Lord for repeating the Statement which has been made in another place. I am sure that he will not expect me at the present time to comment in any detail upon the matters in it, but I should like to ask whether he can give the House any indication of the precise reasons why the Foreign Secretary was unable to see the President of the European Parliament when he was over here recently.

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving me the opportunity of saying absolutely categorically that no possible disrespect was intended to the President. It did not prove possible to arrange a meeting during such a short visit—and I say that on the authority of the Secretary of State. Turning to the several points raised by the noble Baroness, I hope she will forgive me, having herself been in this rather difficult position more than once, if I leave out one or two. But may I say that the Foreign Secretary's "bluntness", as she characterised it, was in fact frankness. The Statement which has been published as a Command Paper is sufficient evidence of that and, taken in conjunction with what we know about the Foreign Secretary, it should be an adequate answer to the noble Baroness. It was decided that this Statement should be frank and firm, and that renegotiation should then proceed in the best spirit on the basis of what the Government of the United Kingdom saw as being the outstanding real difficulties which face this country and its economy in conforming with the existing terms of entry.

The point the noble Baroness raised about the abrogation of treaties is arguable. I do not think anybody in this House or anywhere else would regard existing treaties of this character as impossible to change, either in title or in detail. The approach is clearly to attempt to secure fundamental changes on some four main points and only if necessary, as a long stop, to proceed to the point where the Treaty itself might have to be considered as one that was intolerable economically for this country. I hope that that posture of a reasonable approach on the basis of the four main points which we seek to change will be sustained during these negotiations with the support of all Parties in the State, and that we shall not prejudge and shall not anticipate a position of challenge which may never come about.

The other two points which the noble Baroness raised related to matters which I should wish a little more time to look at, but I promise that I will address myself to them in the fullest detail at the earliest possible opportunity.

LORD MAYBRAY-KING

My Lords, Mr. Berkhouwer, my personal friend, is doing a great job as Speaker of the European Parliament. Will the noble Lord make clear beyond peradventure that no discourtesy was meant to the Speaker of the European Parliament, Mr. Berkhouwer, by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State's not being able to arrange a meeting with him?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I hope that what I have just said will make it absolutely clear, on the authority of the Secretary of State and certainly with the full concurrence of the Government, that no discourtesy was intended and that in fact it was a practical impossibility to fit in such a meeting.

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, the noble Lord may not know, because he was not with us at the time, that the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King, myself and others had the great honour of receiving Mr. Berkhouwer when he visited this House at the end of the last Parliament. We take the point that the noble Lord has just explained to the House that no discourtesy was intended, but none the less it would seem, unfortunately, from the Press accounts at any rate, that some ill-feeling has resulted. As a matter of courtesy to the European Parliament, will the Foreign Secretary now arrange an early meeting?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I shall certainly draw the noble Lord's words to the attention of my right honourable friend.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

My Lords, the noble Lord said that no lack of consideration was intended to the President of the European Parliament, but is it not infinitely worse that Her Majesty's Government's Principal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was rude by mistake as opposed to being rude on purpose?

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware that, contrary to the suggestion made by the noble Baroness opposite and the suggestion made by the noble Earl who has just resumed his seat, I take a quite different view? Having regard to the past behaviour of M. Jobert, the French Foreign Minister, and the attitude of the French Government in general, including the late M. Pompidou, towards the United States of America, and the millions of dollars that have been injected into Europe together with the vast amount of manpower and equipment that has been provided for Europe in the sphere of defence, and, in spite of that, the attitude of France in contracting out of NATO, in particular—because the whole trouble is about defence, if only noble Lords could understand it, as has been mentioned over and over again—that my opinion, for what it may be worth (and whether or not it is worth anything I shall still express it) is that our Foreign Secretary did not speak bluntly enough and harshly enough. What we require in this matter is straight speaking and a forthright attitude, because it is time that some people who disregard American concern about the defence and security of Europe, for which they have paid immeasurably, realised that it is the vital issue.

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, my noble friend's views and opinions are worth a great deal. He has very great experience and judgment in these matters, and while I would not wish to follow him in everything that he has said I welcome what he said about the need to be definite and frank at the start of these negotiations. Secondly, in regard to our relationship with the United States of America, I am sure he will find—if I am fortunate enough to speak during the debate which this Statement interrupted—that much of what he has said will be echoed by myself and by other speakers from this side of the House.

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, while I welcome the care with which the noble Lord sought to answer various questions put to him, may I ask him to reply to a question which I put to him earlier? Does he think that the performance of the Foreign Secretary, which I called "blunt" and he called "frank", seemed to take no account of the Community's interest but only of Britain's interest? If one looks at the White Paper, one sees that it states: If renegotiations do not succeed, we shall not regard the Treaty obligations as binding upon us. It goes on: … whilst the negotiations proceed … we shall stop further processes of integration". This is a threat and is almost like a kind of blackmail. Does the noble Lord think that this is a good way to get the European Community to help us renegotiate?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I hope that the noble Baroness will not quote the Continental Press too freely in describing in those words my right honourable friend's approach. The fact is that it is not only a narrow British interest that is involved. Many of us believe that the durability and success of European Union does depend on there being a more rational and fairer arrangement in regard to benefits and contributions. In this sense the frank British initiative may well turn out to be of benefit to the rest of the Community.

LORD MERRIVALE

My Lords, is it not rather regrettable that the Foreign Secretary, while trying to convince our partners that Her Majesty's Government are renegotiating from within the Community, should during the two days in Luxembourg have given the impression to our partners that the Foreign Secretary was psychologically outside Europe?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, of course the noble Lord has a right to his impressions. My own impression, and that of a great many people in Europe and in this country, is that this is not so, and that psychologically the right honourable gentleman has placed himself in the right posture; that is, to lay down frankly what is troubling us—and I suspect not only people on this side of the House—about the terms of entry. He has explained the position in frank terms and he proposes to follow up with detailed facts and figures, possibly as early as the next meeting of the Council of Ministers on the provisionally arranged date of May 7; and this is the right approach. I hope that nothing will be said which will, as it were, consign these negotiations into a posture of confrontation. This is not my right honourable friend's intention or objective. He means to negotiate on the basis of getting adaptations on these four subjects, and only if it is proved impossible to get these will he consider de novo what our attitude should be.

LORD BLYTON

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the bluntness of the Foreign Secretary in Luxembourg is highly appreciated by the populace outside? Is he further aware that there is a need for bluntness to tell the European Economic Community how disgraceful were the terms which the Tories accepted for us to go into the Common Market and that they are not acceptable to the people of this country.

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, we expect that bluntness, as well as frankness, will be greatly appreciated in the part of Britain from which my noble friend comes.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, on the point of bluntness, may I suggest that we move to the next speaker in the debate?