§ 2.58 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF KINNOULLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how far the Secretary of State is relying on the views of the public in reaching a decision on Concorde; and how soon he intends to make his decision.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY (LORD BESWICK)My Lords, the decision on the future of the project lies with the Government in consultation with our French partners. My right honourable friend held his first meeting with his French colleagues last Friday. But, as my right honourable friend has emphasised, by proceeding as the Government have, in making known the information available to them before a decision is taken, all those interested have the opportunity to put forward their views, and of course these views will be taken into account. I cannot say when a decision will be taken, but the Government recognise the need to allow time for consultations and representations while not wishing to prolong the period of uncertainty any more than is strictly necessary.
§ THE EARL OF KINNOULLMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply. May I ask him whether, in view of the intense public interest and of the apparent contradiction of both opinion and fact between his Departmental review, published I think a week ago, and the subsequent reply of B.A.C. contractors, he will consider requesting his Department to issue a further Statement for clarification, particularly on their estimate of cancellation costs, and particularly on their gloomy forecast of sales and the cautious time of entry into service, to keep public opinion better informed?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, B.A.C. sent an interim reply, and I understand that they are now considering the matter further and will send a more considered and detailed reply to the Statement which my right honourable friend originally made. I cannot say in what form any comments we have to make upon those observations will be made, but certainly whatever decision is taken will be supported by further facts.
§ THE EARL OF KINNOULLMy Lords, if B.A.C. can persuade the Department 809 that some of the Department's figures are incorrect, will the noble Lord undertake that the Department will issue a further Statement?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I certainly give an undertaking that if my Department (and it is not simply my Department that is involved) is proved to be inaccurate that fact will be taken into account.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, can my noble friend say what is likely to be the position if France decides to proceed with the Concorde and we in this country decide to cancel the Concorde? Further, can my noble friend say what is likely to be the cost in unemployment benefit and social security benefit and the loss of trade and the like, as a result of the cancellation of Concorde in Great Britain as compared with the further cost of building Concorde?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, as to the first part of my noble friend's question, what he is putting before us is a hypothesis—it is interesting but still a hypothesis, and therefore I cannot answer it. As to the second part of the question, in the figure of £80 million which was published as being the losses involved in cancellation there was an element of £20 million for redundancy pay and some unemployment benefit. It is suggested, however, that this figure was possibly over-optimistic and it is being looked at again.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, can the noble Lord say what figure in compensation we should have to pay the French Government if we decided to cancel Concorde?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I thought I said that the whole question of cancellation and any liability to the French is hypothetical.
§ LORD THOMASMy Lords, will not the noble Lord agree that in view of the fact that most of the components for the 16 Concordes have been machined and the only question is one of assembly, this is the wrong time to speak about cancellation? Also that, whatever arithmetic may be available to date, until the Concorde has been offered to the public and the load factor it attracts has settled down, it is not practicable at this stage to make a forecast of its profitability or otherwise?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the noble Lord, out of very considerable experience, puts forward a point of view which I think should be taken into account.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, will the Government bear in mind that, taking the long view, supersonic travel will be the thing of the future, and that if we do not go on with manufacturing the Concorde somebody else will produce a similar aircraft—probably Russia?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I think that what the noble Lord has said is absolutely incontrovertible, and this ought to be looked at within a time-scale of no less than 30 years.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, so many figures have been published about the Concorde by the noble Lord's right honourable friend, in order that the public might know the facts, that surely the cost to this country of cancellation, if cancellation is to come about, must be known. I ask the noble Lord whether or not he has those figures, and if he has them whether it is possible for us to know them?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, what my right honourable friend has said—and he has received a good deal of support in the attitude he has adopted—is that the public at large should be given all the facts that are known; what the noble Earl is asking for is something which is not known. It is quite impossible to say what, if any, attitude the French Government would adopt in the event of that hypothetical situation arising.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, will not my noble friend agree that the supplementary question asked by the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, suggests that he is trying to impress upon this House that as a member of the previous Government he—and they—did not know what was the situation in regard to the Concorde before the present Government took over?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I am much obliged to my noble friend. I think what he has said is in fact the case. If the figure were known it would be known to the previous Administration, as would all the other figures.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask this further question which is not related to hypotheses? Is it within the 811 compass of Her Majesty's Government to say how many people will actually remain unemployed as a result of the cancellation of Concorde?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the figure of 21,000 has been mentioned as being directly involved, but of course there would be some indirect consequences as well.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, may I suggest that we should now proceed to the next Question: we have spent twenty minutes, a long time, on the first three Questions.