HL Deb 24 October 1973 vol 345 cc673-8

4.42 p.m.

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, I should like, by leave of the House, to repeat a Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster about the main matters considered in the Council of the European Communities since last reported to the House on July 25. The Statement is as follows:

"There have been six meetings—Foreign Ministers (twice), Agriculture Ministers (twice), Economic Ministers and Finance Ministers.

"Economic Ministers met in Tokyo on September 11–12 in preparation for the GATT ministerial meeting which successfully launched the multilateral trade negotiations.

"Foreign Ministers met on September 20 and October 15. They considered: the question of the Community's participation in negotiations for a new International Sugar Agreement; relations between the Community and the Council for Mutual Economic Assistance (COMECON); the Commission's proposals for an industrial and technological policy programme; measures to improve working relations between the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament; the mandate for a new association agreement between the Community and certain developing countries in Africa, the Caribbean and the Pacific; and a report on progress with the proposals for a Regional Development Fund.

"Finance Ministers met on September 21 to discuss the Committee's Budget for 1974, which is now being considered by the European Parliament. It amounts to 5,026 million units of account (mua), slightly lower than the revised budget for 1973. The United Kingdom contribution will be about £206 million gross and £90 million net which is of the same order as the forecast in last year's Public Ex- penditure White Paper (Cmnd. 5178). Finance Ministers agreed that as soon as the amount of money to be allocated to the Regional Development Fund had been decided, funds would be made immediately available.

"At the meeting of Agriculture Ministers on September 24–25, my right honourable friend raised the subject of animal welfare and the Commission undertook to carry out an urgent study of these problems. They also had a preliminary discussion on the Commission's proposals for the future Community sugar régime.

"At their meeting on October 22–23 the Agriculture Ministers held a detailed discussion on the Commission's draft directive on aids for mountainous and less favoured agricultural areas, including the criteria for assistance, the measures to be applied and the level of FEOGA contribution. They also considered the possibility of extending some form of assistance for dairy cows in these areas; and invited the Commission to put forward proposals for further consideration. The Council will seek to reach firm conclusions on these matters at its next meeting in November."

My Lords, that is the end of the Statement.

4.45 p.m.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, I feel that I must thank the noble Baroness for repeating this Statement and for fulfilling the undertaking which the Government gave, I think some 12 months ago, that they would keep the House informed on matters which have been dealt with in the Council of Ministers. Prior to the Statements we had a debate, and whether or not the House was satisfied at the end with the explanation of the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, I believe it would be agreed that there was a sense of unease at the Parliamentary control, both at Strasbourg and I think in this country. We now have this Statement. Unless one had kept in very close touch with one's newspapers, much of this Statement would mean absolutely nothing. I therefore question again the adequacy of our existing Parliamentary arrangements which Parliament uses to have some control, some influence, on ministerial actions at Brussels. There is a Report of my noble friend Lord Maybray-King now before the House. It may be that from that Report we shall be able to devise ways and means by which Parliament may exercise control and influence, and particularly we may be able to take these Statements off the Floor of the House and to ask the more pertinent questions which these Statements justify.

I have only two points I wish the noble Baroness to confirm. We have been told that the Foreign Ministers considered the question of the Community's participation in negotiations for a new International Sugar Agreement". Would the noble Baroness confirm that the Ministers could not reach agreement as a consequence of the French attitude; that the Common Market was not able to be present at the Conference on International Sugar, and that the whole field of sugar manufacture, of refining and of growing, is now in complete disarray, and that much of the Government's undertakings cease to be bankable? Would she confirm that it was a consequence of the French action that the E.E.C. could not be present at the meeting?

In regard to the Regional Development Fund, could the noble Baroness give any indication when Parliament will know what funds are likely to be available for regional development in this country? I was pleased to see that some steps have been taken to help in the more mountainous and less favoured agricultural areas, particularly those in Scotland, and I wonder whether the noble Baroness would give us some further information about assistance, particularly to dairy cow operations in that area. We hope that the Government will stand up very firmly in this particular field, because these more backward areas of our country are in need of assistance. It is difficult to go any further with this Statement in the light of the time, but I hope that perhaps by the next time we have a report we may have the machinery for a proper examination of the conduct of the Government at Brussels.

LORD GLADWYN

My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Baroness for keeping us informed to the extent that she has kept us informed, but to note, however, that it is not a very informative Statement, as such. I would also ask whether she would not agree that if the Labour Party would like to be further informed as to what is happening behind the scenes and to get all the gossip, which we fortunately have, with regard to progress in all these spheres, they merely have to nominate a delegation to the European Parliament.

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, and the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn. I agree that the question of Parliamentary control, allied to the Report now issued by the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King, is one of great importance to this House. I note what the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, says about a possible arrangement for taking Statements such as these off the Floor of the House. It is true that when we meet together after the Summer Recess, and one wishes to undertake one's obligations of reporting to the House and has to report on six meetings, the Statement is bound to cover a great number of subjects.

On the question of the International Sugar Agreement, it is perfectly true that no agreement has yet been reached, but I would say again that Her Majesty's Government stand firmly by the assurances which were given to the developing sugar-producing members of the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement at the meetings in Lancaster House in June, 1971, and in March, 1973, about the access of their sugar into the enlarged Community after the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement expires at the end of 1974; and despite the fact that we have not yet reached agreement, we are encouraged by the fact that the Commission seemed to agree with our interpretation of the Community's undertaking on sugar. Proposals on sugar which were tabled in July and which are now under consideration include the provision for the import of 1.4 million tons of sugar from developing countries covered by the Protocol 22 of the Treaty of Accession and India. Despite the fact that the noble Lord suspects that the French delegation at the moment are not themselves convinced of the total merits of this proposal, I can say that I am confident that these proposals will eventually be accepted.

The noble Lord asked about the Regional Development Fund and the decisions on setting up the Fund. The matter of the size of the Fund will be taken later in the autumn by the Council itself. On the question of dairy cows, of course we are not in agreement ourselves on this arrangement. We were hoping that the assistance to the hill areas would be confined to sheep, but there are mountainous areas within the Community where cows are pastured, and some members of the Community feel that assistance should also be applied to them; but no decision has yet been taken. On the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn—who has suddenly fled this House—I can only say that I entirely agree with him that if members of the Labour Party were able to join the Parliamentary Assembly in Europe they would be able, I am sure, to make a great contribution.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, I am really surprised that the noble Baroness can find any connection with one of these "fly-by-night" Peers who make quite outrageous statements and then do not even have the courtesy either to hear the Minister's reply or to hear a possible retort. All I can say, through Hansard, which presumably the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, reads, is that we might catch a flea when we have the gracious Speech next week.

LORD BALERNO

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether the mountainous regions could possibly also include the island regions? There are more dairy cows and more need for milk in the islands off Scotland than there are perhaps in the Highlands. There are very few Highland dairy herds producing milk, though there are some, but milk for the Highlands can be easily transported, whereas milk for the islands cannot be so easily transported, and the dairy farmers on the islands have to pay exceedingly high freight. That, coming on top of the very high feeding costs at the present time, is almost going to ensure that there will be no dairy cows on the islands off Scotland unless something is done about it.

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, I will certainly convey the feeling of my noble friend Lord Balerno to my right honourable friend concerning the island regions. I have myself, of course, been to the Outer Hebrides and many of the islands off Scotland, and I agree that the freight charges do make the transport of milk from the Mainland which happens now very expensive. I will certainly bear that in mind.

LORD DAVIES OF LEEK

My Lords, may I suggest to the noble Baroness two crisp points? Is she aware that we need not be at either Brussels or Strasbourg, when they move the gipsy caravan of Parliament from place to place, to know what is going on? Some of us who try to follow meticulously and fill up the forms to get the information know that members must be overwhelmed with Statutory Instruments and pieces of paper, and things are passed which neither the Government side nor our side knows about. That ought to be altered. Secondly, regarding agriculture, as somebody who has taken an interest in it over many years may I ask whether we are going to co-ordinate on one important factor: the attack on foot and mouth disease? Are we getting a guarantee from the E.E.C. that the same meticulous care will be given to the eradication of foot and mouth disease as has been given by any Government's policy for agriculture in this country for our animals?

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, on the question of whether too many documents are available, may I say that at one time there was a complaint that there were not enough documents. I suggest that this could be the kind of matter to debate when we have an opportunity to discuss the Report of the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King. On the question of the protective measures on foot and mouth disease, these are, of course, of prime importance to this country, and if we are going to have a unified policy within the European Community this must be one of the arrangements.