§ 2.43 p.m.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will give details of retail price increases since June 18, 1970, in so far as the following items commonly used in ordinary households are 626 concerned: Meat, bacon, eggs, bread, and fifty or so of the main fresh and packed foodstuffs, detergents, soaps, toilet requisites, radio batteries, pots and pans, over-the-counter medicaments, beer, wines and fruit juices; and also of the increased charges for postage, telephones, rents and rates during that period.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, as the reply contains a table of figures I shall with permission circulate a Statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
§ Following is the statement referred to:
§ The percentage changes in retail prices between June 16, 1970, and September 18, 1973, of some items commonly used in ordinary households are as follows:—
| Item | Percentage Change |
| Beef | +79 |
| Lamb | +77 |
| Pork | +58 |
| Bacon | +83 |
| Ham | +44 |
| Eggs | +99 |
| Bread | +25 |
| Pork sausages | +44 |
| Beef sausages | +59 |
| Pork luncheon meat (tinned) | +45 |
| Roasting chicken, frozen (3 lb.) | +69 |
| Canned red salmon | +58 |
| Butter | +26 |
| Margarine | +32 |
| Lard | +40 |
| Cheese, cheddar type | +78 |
| Milk | +20 |
| Tea | +9 |
| Coffee, extract, powder | +34 |
| Sugar | +38 |
| Jam, Marmalade | +27 |
| Potatoes, raw, loose | —13 |
| Tomatoes | —18 |
| Cabbage | +55 |
| Cauliflower | +57 |
| Carrots | —6 |
| Onions | —2 |
| Apples, cooking | +28 |
| Apples, dessert | +26 |
| Pears | +39 |
| Oranges | +65 |
| Bananas | +46 |
| Currants | +90 |
| Sultanas | +97 |
| Canned pears | +33 |
| Canned peaches | +40 |
| Canned pineapple | +34 |
| Canned fruit salad | +36 |
| Swqets and chocolates | +6 |
| Food for animals | +23 |
| Soap and detergents | +24 |
| Toilet requisites | +9 |
| Hardware, ironmongery | +25 |
| Medicines and surgical etc. goods | +27 |
| Beer | +18 |
| Sherry | +9 |
| Postage, etc. | +74 |
| Telephones, telegrams, etc. | +34 |
| Rents | +33 |
| Rates and water charges | +40 |
| Radio batteries | Not available |
| Fruit juices | Not available |
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, does the noble Earl mean to say that the list of price increases since this Government came into office is so long that he cannot recite it to this House? Further, may I seek a little detailed information? Is it not a fact that during September price increases amounted to 2.1 per cent., the highest figure for two and a half years? Is it not a fact that since the General Election food price increases have been 40.2 per cent.? Is it not also a fact that during the present month of October there have been further considerable increases? Finally, is it not a fact that last week the Grocer announced that 742 price increases had become current last week—and when I mention the Grocer, I mean the journal of that name and not any individual person.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I said that I would circulate the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT because the noble Lord's Question asked that Her Majesty's Government provide a list of about 50 or more different items, and I thought it would be for the convenience of your Lordships to be able to read it rather than for me to depict all the items. The noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, is entirely correct when he says that the food index since the General Election has gone up by 40.2 per cent. This is of course a matter of grave concern, and is something about which Her Majesty's Government are concerned. But I would draw the attention of the noble Lord to the fact that average earnings of all workers have gone up by 44.8 per cent. and old-age pensions by 55 per cent.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the Tory Party's Manifesto at the last Election promised us a high wage, low cost economy? Does he think that that promise has been fulfilled?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, the Government are tackling that problem, which is of world-wide repute and concern. I would suggest to the noble Lord that we have had a modicum of success, even though the Government agree that they have not yet had total success.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that average earnings do not help those on the lower scale, the lower paid workers, and that average prices have to be accepted and absorbed by those on the lower scale of wage rates?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, is of course correct, and Her Majesty's Government have always recognised this. That is the reason why we have decided to try to help the lower paid people by selective assistance, such as increasing the old-age pension and the family income supplement; and that is why the counter-inflation policy in Phase 2 has deliberately been designed to help the lower paid worker. Also in this connection, the measures taken to allow for rent allowances and rent rebates have again been designed to help those who are less well off.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, is ours the only country where such rises have occurred?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, it is quite true that we have experienced rises in world food prices. In the year ending August, 1973, United Kingdom food prices went up by 12.8 per cent.; in the United States by 13.4 per cent.; in Italy, 13.6 per cent.; in Australia, 14 per cent.; in South Africa, 16.5 per cent.; and in Canada, 16.7 per cent. So we are not the worst country in the league table from the point of view of increased food prices.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, when the noble Earl refers to the increase in world prices, can he inform the House how much the fall in the value of the pound is related to the prices we are having to pay for our imports? Would I be correct in saying that if the value of the pound in July, 1970, stood at 100 per cent., it now stands at 77½ per cent.? Just how does this reflect itself in the increased world prices that we have to pay and to which the noble Earl referred?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, clearly the alteration in the level of the pound makes a difference so far as the calculations are concerned, but what I was trying to point out was that the increase in prices of food is not restricted to this country, but is common to all countries in the Western World.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, surely the noble Earl will agree that world prices having nothing to do with the sheer inflationary policy of the Government in increasing rents to working class people under the Rent Bill? Surely this was a matter for the Government and not for outside world prices?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, that particular question may be a matter for the Government, and that is the reason why the Government took action in allowing for rent rebates and rent allowances under the Bill recently passed by your Lordships.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, when the noble Earl speaks about a "modicum of success", has he in mind the price of butter to the Russians?
§ THE EARL OF ONSLOWMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that the modicum of success is slightly better than that achieved by the previous Government?
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the general public are of the opinion that the Board which was set up by the Government to deal with price increases is too ready to give way to manufacturers' applications for increases in certain commodities?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I think that that particular question is going slightly wide of the original one, but I would answer the noble Lord with one particular instance. The prices of imported food raw materials used by food manufacturers, since the General Election in June, 1970, to now, have increased by 89 per cent.; that is the imported raw materials for food manufacuring. They have increased by 89 per cent., but the retail prices for manufactured foods have increased by only 26 per cent.
LORD JANNERMy Lords, will the noble Earl explain why, when the Government claimed that they were going to reduce prices and there would not he inflation, they did not explain to the 630 public at that time that if world prices increased our position would be different? Did they not deceive the population of this country? Will he say which other countries put forward an election claim, at the time that elections took place in their countries, that they were going to reduce prices?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I would not answer the last part of the noble Lord's question, because that might be a piece of research he may care to do himself. The Government never claimed that there would not be inflation. What they have endeavoured to do is to deal with inflation, and this they have done.
EARL FERRERSWhen one considers that over the past 12 months the world price of wheat has increased by 130 per cent., even the noble Lord, Lord Janner, will agree that that is outside the Government's control.
§ LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELANDMy Lords, having regard to the fact that all these questions seem to be directed to the ability of people to live in the atmosphere of inflation, is it not time that a minimum wage was established in this country which would enable all people to live even without security benefits, and that old-age pensions ought to be related to this minimum wage?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, with respect to the noble Lord, Lord Douglass, that is a different question. But I would assure him that the Government have very firmly in mind the position of those who are less well off and those who are living on fixed incomes, and that is the reason for the action we have taken, which I suggest has met with approval.
§ LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELANDMy Lords, may I follow that up? It is one thing for the Government to have something firmly in mind; it is quite another thing for the people on these low wages to live, and even though it may—
§ LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELANDI am going to put the question but, after all, on the opposite side they qualify questions, do they not, before they argue the case? When I have been negotiating 631 wages I have always had to argue the case before I put the question. I am now arguing the case that certain people in this country are not able to live on the income they have. Hence the question: is it not time that we gave some active consideration to the question of a minimum wage in this country?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I would only answer the noble Lord, Lord Douglass, by saying that the food index has gone up by 40.2 per cent. The retail price index has gone up by 30 per cent. But the average earnings of all workers have gone up by 44.8 per cent., and therefore have exceeded the two very important figures which the noble Lord is concerned with.
§ LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELANDMy Lords, I am sorry to pursue this point, but let me ask another question. This time I will ask a question to begin with. Do percentages matter when you consider incomes of thousands of pounds a year and incomes of a few hundred pounds a year in some cases?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, that is the reason why the Government have produced the family income supplement to help families that are less well off.
§ LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELANDLet me follow this up, my Lords, if I may.
§ LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELANDI am entitled to ask questions. I do not often, but I am going to. To have family income supplement is not dealing with this question at all. The question is made evident. What I want to know is when we are going to establish a minimum income, a minimum wage, for people in this country that will at least enable them to eat, if not pay their rents.
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD WINDLESHAM)My Lords, I feared when I saw this Question on the Order Paper that it would lead to a general debate. This is an example of how, when a Question is put down that covers such an enormously wide range of subject matter, we tend to have a rather disorderly Question Time. The noble Lord 632 has asked four supplementary questions. I can assure him that there will be an opportunity to discuss the Government's economic policies during the debate on the Queen's Speech. We look forward to hearing his views then.
§ LORD BOOTHBYMy Lords, while hesitating to continue the debate, may I ask the noble Earl—and here I have to declare a personal interest—whether the best way of dealing with the whole of this question would not be to raise old-age pensions?
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, I hope I am not to take it that the noble Lord the Leader of the House is rebuking me for putting down this Question. I should like to ask, by way of a finale, this further question. When the noble Earl said that we were having to pay more for our food imports, was he taking into account the fact that one of the reasons for that was the action of the present Government in devaluing the pound?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, the prices of imported foods are the prices at which the food comes into the country, and this takes into account the point which the noble Lord has expressed.