§ 3.20 p.m.
§ Further considered on Report.
§ Clause 97 [Establishment of Commission for Local Authority Accounts in Scotland]:
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEMy Lords, this Amendment, No. 57, and the one which follows are both consequential on Amendment No. 56 which was accepted by the House last night and is now part of the Bill. In these circumstances, I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 52, line 19, leave out ("any other person") and insert ("and Officers of the Commission, being Professional Accountants, and approved Auditors appointed by the Commission for conducting Audits or, as the case may be, a particular audit under this part of the Act. Approved Auditor means an Auditor who is qualified under new subsection (7) below").—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEMy Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 58.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 52, line 21, insert—
("(7) A person is qualified under subsection (6) above if, and only if, he is a member of a firm, all the persons wherein are members of one or more of the following bodies—that is to say
The Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland.
The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales.
The Association of Certified Accountants.
The Institute of Municipal Treasurers and Accountants.
The Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland.
Any other body of Accountants established in the United Kingdom for the time being approved by the Secretary of State.").—(Lord Strathclyde.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 108 [Determination and levy of regional, district and general rates]:
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, this and the next Amendment, Nos. 59 and 60, both correct printing errors. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 60, line 25, after ("shall") insert ("be").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
168§ Clause 109 [Rating Authorities]:
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 60.
§ Amendment moved—
§ Page 61, line 14, leave out ("of") and insert ("to").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 113 [Persons to whom s.112 applies]:
§
LORD DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 61:
Page 64, line 4, leave out ("the prescribed form") and insert ("such form as the rating authority may require").
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, Clause 113(1) requires rate rebate applications to be made "in the prescribed form", and because of Clause 112(6) this means prescribed by the regulations made by the Secretary of State. However, it is preferable to leave the form of application to the discretion of the rating authority and wherever possible for them to treat an application for rent rebate or allowance as an application for rate rebate also. I beg to move.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
LORD DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 62:
Page 64, line 26, leave out ("Where") and insert ("Regulations under section 112 above may make provision as respects rate rebates where").
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, Clause 113(2) provides, as does Section 5(7) of the Rating Act 1966, that where a house is held in joint occupation or jointly tenanted, each joint occupier or tenant (other than a married couple) is to be treated separately for rate rebate. The effect of the 1966 Act provision is that the rates payable are split between the joint occupiers and the entitlement of each to rebate is calculated separately according to his means.
§
For rent rebates and allowances, paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 to the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act provides that a housing authority
may treat as a sole tenant … one or two or more joint tenants".
§ It appears that in practice this is what is almost always appropriate; certainly, we have no knowledge of any departure 169 from this method in Scotland. If the rates were similarly dealt with the entitlement to rebate on the whole amount would be calculated on the income of one joint occupier, with the other treated as a "non-dependant".
§ Under the clause as it stands, therefore, joint tenants who were also joint rateable occupiers would be treated differently for the purpose of rent and rate rebates. The effect of the Amendment is to leave the detailed arrangements for rate rebates for joint tenants to be determined by the regulations setting out the standard scheme. What we shall be seeking to put in the regulations is a formula designed to ensure that the joint tenants get a rebate which is fairly adjusted to the income and the needs of the household. An advantage of leaving the treatment of joint occupiers to be dealt with in the regulations is that a comparable rate rebate scheme is to be introduced in England and Wales and that the Amendment would leave scope for further consultation and allow us to ensure that the treatment of joint occupiers in both countries is uniform. I beg to move.
THE EARL OF BALFOURMy Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for having put this Amendment down. I was not at all satisfied on this point. I think this has definitely improved the Bill and I should like to support the Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, Amendment No. 63 is a consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 64, line 29, leave out from ("subsection") to end of line 35.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 114 [Variation of standard scheme by rating authority]:
§
LORD DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 64:
Page 65, line 39, leave out ("in ") and insert ("for").
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, Clause 114 enables a rating authority to vary the standard rate rebate scheme within a limit of 10 per cent. extra cost. The Amendments are required because the limit needs to operate on the total of the rate rebates granted in respect of the 170 financial year and not in the financial year. I beg to move.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 65:
§
Amendment moved—
Page 65, line 41, leave out ("in") and insert ("for").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 115 [Grants towards rate rebates]:
§
LORD DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 66:
Page 67, line 13, after ("period") insert ("or part thereof").
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, Clause 115(1) provides for grants of 90 per cent. of the cost of rate rebates under the new scheme. This Amendment is required because a rate rebate period could bridge the end of one financial year and the beginning of the next, and it is intended to make the rate rebate period correspond with the rent rebate period. I beg to move.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Schedule 9 [Amendments with respect to finance]:
§
LORD DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 67:
Page 178, line 24, after ("be") insert ("to the councils of all districts within that region").
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment fulfils an undertaking given in Committee on an Amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Balfour (OFFICIAL REPORT, July 18, col. 1300) that the local assessors would be required to provide estimates of the new rateable valuations of districts following each revaluation, to district councils as well as to regional councils as rating authorities. The Amendment gives effect to this. I beg to move.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 68:
§
Page 179, line 27, at end insert—
("In section 26(2), in the definition of "local authority", for the words from "county" onwards there shall be substituted the words "regional, islands or district council".")
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, in Committee my noble friend Lord Balfour 171 questioned the aptness of the definition of "local authority" in Section 26 of the Local Government (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1963. While we have not adopted the Amendment which he proposed, we agree that an Amendment is necessary and are grateful to him for having drawn attention to the need for it. I beg to move.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, Amendment No. 69 brings the definition of "local authority" in the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1966 into line with the ones which your Lordships have just agreed to. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 180, line 23, at end insert—
("In section 46(1), in the definition of "local authority", for the words from "county" onwards there shall be substituted the words "regional, islands or district council".")
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 124 [Education Committees]:
§ 3.29 p.m.
§
LORD HUGHES moved Amendment No. 70:
Page 73, line 5, leave out from ("persons") to ("of") in line 9 and insert ("nominated by a meeting of representatives").
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment relates to the appointment of representatives of Churches on local authorities. The Bill provides for a third representative in certain cases, and a second and a third representative in the Highland areas, to be appointed by the local authorities having regard to the denominations and their respective strength and so on in the area. This Amendment was suggested by—and I gather they wrote to a number of your Lordships—a body called the Association of Church Representatives on Education Committees, and the effect of the Amendment would be that the local authority, instead of selecting who the second or third Church representatives would be, would arrange for a meeting of representatives, not of all the congregations, but of all the Churches in the area, who would nominate a member or members who would then be accepted by the authority.
172§ I am not quite certain in my own mind that it is necessary to put an Amendment of this kind in the Bill in order to accomplish this end. If it is in the existing legislation, then obviously there is no reason why it should go in this particular Bill. But if it is not in the legislation, then it is not necessary to legislate in order to have it happen, because I know that this is the procedure which is adopted in quite a number of local authorities. It takes away from them the difficulty of making a choice as to which particular Minister or Church representative is to be chosen, leaving it to the authorities themselves to make the nomination. If the Minister is going to tell me that it is not desirable or necessary to do this in the present Bill, but that in the sort of guidance that is given to local authorities in these matters from time to time this particular way of dealing with the matter is drawn to their attention, that I think would be a satisfactory way of meeting the situation, because I am quite certain that those authorities who have found a successful way of doing it in the past will be delighted to carry it on in the future. I beg to move.
§ LORD MACLEOD OF FUINARYMy Lords, I do not intend to delay your Lordships for more than two minutes, but as the only perital member of the Church of Scotland in this House, I think I have a peculiar interest in Clause 124(3), and I would of course approve an Amendment in the terms of that moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, if it was accepted. We are grateful for the provision that has been made by the Government for three church representatives, one from the Church of Scotland, one from the Roman Catholic Church, each to be appointed by the decision of the relevant priests of the General Assembly or the heirarchy as to the method of his appointment; and this subsection is simply concerned with how the appointment is made for the third person with religious interests. The effect of the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, would leave the selection, as he said, to a meeting of representatives of all the Churches which can be recognised as such. There exists, as he stated, an Association of Church Representatives on Education Committees, and it seems fairly wise that those who are themselves 173 already concerned with religious education, rather than the very much larger education authority, should be the deciding factor as to who the third man should be, or if it is a question of the Islands, who their dual persons should be in the matter. I think it is worthwhile, unless we have some assurance on the point, retaining this Amendment at the moment, and I support the noble Lord, Lord Hughes.
§ LORD POLWARTHMy Lords, we always listen with attention to the advice of the reverend noble Lord (as I think we should call him), who addresses us all too seldom. The noble Lord, Lord Hughes, asked whether the position was unchanged from that in the existing legislation. That is not quite the case, because at present the Church of Scotland, the national Church, does not enjoy automatic right of representation on these committees. It is only the reserved right of the Roman Catholic Church, for historical reasons which I will not go into now.
§ LORD HUGHESMy Lords, if I may interrupt the noble Lord, it was in regard to the method of selection that I wanted to know whether there was any change.
§ LORD POLWARTHMy Lords, I am sorry, but I had not quite understood the point. There is indeed to be a change. We propose a change in the method of selection for this very reason. The meeting of {the Churches in the previous system ensured that on numbers the Church of Scotland would get representation. There were only the two members. Now we come to a third place. We feel that the right thing here is not to saddle the Churches with the making of this decision. I, too, have had this representation from this no doubt worthy body of the Association of Church Representatives on Education Committees. I think the main reason given in their letter for this new proposal suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, was that it would relieve the regional authorities of an invidious procedural task as envisaged in the Government's proposals; namely, of selecting, by whatever means they chose, the third representative.
I think that argument might well be turned round and used with regard to the Churches. When the Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church have 174 prescribed places here and a meeting is then called to select the third representative it is very likely that in the great majority of cases the decision will be in the hands of the Church of Scotland because of its numerical dominance in most areas. I think it could equally be said that to have that laid down by Statute as the method of selection would be an invidious task for the Churches. There is nothing to prevent the local authority calling a meeting of Churches and denominations to enable them to discharge their task. There may be cases where it will be obvious what the right choice is, and where it is unnecessary to go through all the procedures of calling together all the representatives of all the Churches in the area. I feel that your Lordships would be advised to stick to the procedure in the Bill, because this was debated at great length in the other place and after much to and fro agreement was reached there; and after much discussion with the various Churches on a national level in Scotland, it was agreed with them. I think the overriding reason for sticking to the Bill as we are proposing it is to avoid any further disturbance of an agreement reached after full discussion and consideration by all concerned. Therefore I hope the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, will accept that the purpose of his Amendment will, as I think, often be achieved. I think the Churches will frequently be consulted and the local authorities are aware of the consideration behind the proposal.
§ LORD BALERNOMy Lords, I should like to support my noble friend in this matter. I followed the disputation in the matter in the other place, and the concessions that were then made by the Government regarding Church representation eventually received general agreement. I think it would be the greatest pity were we at this stage to disrupt that agreement in any way. It could easily cause further difficulty if it had to be debated and altered at considerable speed when the Bill goes back to the other place. I think, on balance, it will be a healthier way and will lead to less friction to give the local authorities the opportunity either of nominating, or if the local pressure is such of forming a committee such as the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, indicates in his Amendment. For that 175 reason, I would suggest that your Lordships would be well advised to leave the matter as it stands.
§ LORD MACLEOD OF FUINARYMy Lords, I hope it is in order for me to rise again on a point of clarification of Lord Polwarth's speech. He seems to convey that one of the main reasons why this matter should go to the education authority and not to the representative association is that mostly those concerned would be members of the Church of Scotland. I have no doubt that the noble Lord is aware that the Association of Church Representatives on Education Committees is composed of all the Churches; that is to say, it is composed not merely of the Roman Catholics and the Church of Scotland but also of all those who will be represented under this third person. In other words, it is not just the Roman Catholics and the Church of Scotland meeting together to decide who is to represent the other denominations. The committees deciding it, if the Amendment is carried, would be not the education authorities but people representing all the different denominations in addition to the Catholic and Church of Scotland denominations. Therefore, the decision would be a total decision, and not one by just the Church of Scotland.
§ LORD POLWARTHMy Lords, I fully accept the point made by the noble Lord, but I would leave the thought with your Lordships that perhaps there could be an advantage in the final choice not being limited to a body consisting of those already sitting or already involved in the matter.
§ LORD HUGHESMy Lords, very briefly, I do not quite agree with the Minister about the argument that went on in another place or that it had anything to do with the method of selection. So far as I remember reading about it, it referred to the question of whether there ought to be any Church representatives on any of these committees at all and, if so, how many there ought to be. The noble Lord then stated that there was ultimate agreement on an increase from two to three. I should be most unwilling, as a result of this Amendment, to give the opponents of three or the opponents of two the opportunity 176 of having another go at the matter in another place. What I should be content to do would be to write back to the Association—I will send them a copy of Hansard—and direct their attention to what the noble Lord has said regarding the possibility of this procedure's being continued in the future. I have no doubt that they will in due course take it up with the education committees to see whether the matter can be dealt with in that way. With these words, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.