§ 2.48 p.m.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question of which I have given Her Majesty's Government Private Notice, namely:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a Statement on the outbreak of Arab-Israeli hostilities?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs will to-morrow make a full Statement on the Middle East which I will, by leave of this House, repeat. Noble Lords will, however, be aware that Her Majesty's Government's main objective is to bring the fighting to an end and simultaneously to create conditions in which urgent progress can be made towards carrying out Security Council Resolution 242 in full. In the meantime, we have stopped sending arms to the battlefield.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the House will be grateful to the noble Baroness for the answer she has just given. I hope she will understand that we are in some difficulties because this is the first day of resumption after the Recess. We are all deeply conscious of and share the anxiety and disquiet of the people of this country about hostilities in the Middle East. No doubt there are many noble Lords who would like to put particular points to the noble Baroness, but in the circumstances I can understand that the Foreign Secretary would himself wish to make a very full Statement to-morrow. I think the House ought, therefore, to be content with what the noble Baroness has said. However, I presume that the statement that arms have ceased to be supplied, presumably to both sides, means that the 8 Scorpion tanks not yet sent to one of the Arab States will now not be sent, and, secondly, that the Government will look at the question of training Egyptian pilots in the present circumstances. Perhaps this matter could be part of the Statement the Foreign Secretary will make to-morrow. In the light of that, if I may advise my noble friends in the House, I think we ought to wait for the full Statement to-morrow. But the noble Baroness and the Government Chief Whip will be aware that it must be expected that we may wish to debate the Middle East situation on Thursday in the light of the Statement being made to-morrow. I hope we can have an assurance, either from the Leader of the House or from the Chief Whip, that, if it is the desire of Members, time will be provided for such a debate.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I would thank the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, for his most admirable restraint, with which I very much concur, because I think it would be more acceptable to the House if they based their questions on the full Statement to-morrow. As I understand it there is a possibility,in fact a probability, that there will be a debate on Thursday. On the specific question put to me by the noble Lord about the Scorpions for Dubai, as he is well aware, Dubai is not a battlefield country and that is why these are continuing.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, would the noble Baroness be a little more forthcoming? There has been deep disquiet about aircraft supplied to Libya and deep suspicion that these aircraft have found their way to the battlefield. Would the noble Baroness look at this matter, because there is great disquiet among Members of this House about all arms to these States in the light of the present situation?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I will certainly draw this question to the attention of my right honourable friend. I omitted to reply to another point put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, about training Egyptian pilots in this country. These are 12 trained Egyptian pilots who are on a conversion course in this country. We feel that this should 9 continue. We do not think that it would help matters particularly to send these 12 pilots back.
LORD JANNERMy Lords, while I appreciate that we shall be debating or discussing this matter to-morrow, there are one or two matters of considerable urgency on which I should like to ask a question. The first is with regard to the removal of the embargo on Israel relating to the supply of arms. How dare we, and how can we, refuse to supply Israel with parts necessary to use the tanks that we ourselves sold to them, particularly after a contract has been entered into and that contract has already gone to the extent of the arms being delivered in this country to Israel? In view of the tremendous amount of armaments being flown in and supplied by Russia, in particular, to Arab countries, is it not a shocking thing that we should stand aside and leave these people who are defending Israel against an aggression, and a violation which everybody realises is a violation, to be slaughtered by guns and weapons far above the numbers that they themselves possess, and in spite of the fact that the aggression was taken on one of the most sacred days which was being celebrated in Israel by Israeli troops? Cannot we possibly do the right thing and remove that embargo straight away? Time is very important in this matter.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, while I personally understand the noble Lord's deep personal concern, I would ask him to recall that in recent years Her Majesty's Government's policy has been to consider requests for arms from both sides provided that they did not seem likely to impede the search for a settlement or to encourage the resort to hostilities. This is why we have now imposed an embargo. On the last point, I do not think that it is right to apportion blame for this round of fighting. The British concern is not to take sides, but somehow to ensure a lasting solution to the problems of the area.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that nobody expects this country to take sides, but it is obvious from some statements that have been made—even by her right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary 10 —that we appear to be adopting an attitude that is far from neutral. Can the noble Baroness justify the refusal of the British Government to provide spare parts and other material for which Israel has already paid? Can she also state whether King Hussein, who has suddenly decided to enter into hostilities in a limited fashion, is being provided with arms from this country as for the past few years? May we have some information about that?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, as I said earlier, we think that an embargo should not be one sided. It applies to both the main combatants in the area. So far as Jordan is concerned, it applies also to her.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, the noble Baroness cannot get away with that. There are many other things that the Government are getting away with. I want to ask quite plainly whether it is true that Israel has paid for spare parts for tanks and other equipment and that this material has not been delivered? If so, why not?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I thought that I made it perfectly clear, and I hoped that it was acceptable to the House, that in this very severe conflict it would not do to have an embargo which was one-sided. The only way in which we had a justification for working for a cease-fire, and connecting that with a settlement that is fair to all concerned, is to have embargoes to the battlefield.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, if it is not to be one-sided, would the noble Baroness inform your Lordships' House whether Egypt has purchased material from this country, paid for it and been refused delivery? Indeed, is it true that Egypt is not concerned at all about getting arms from this country because she has been adequately supplied by Russia, who, as we know, is no friend of this country?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am happy to say that I have a precedent from the previous Government of the noble Lord who, together with ourselves, always refused to discuss in detail specific arms agreements, and I do not propose to do so now.
§ BARONESS BIRKMy Lords, in view of the reply regarding the training of Egyptian pilots, and of the fact that, as understand it, the Government have confirmed that these pilots are being trained and will continue to be trained, may I ask whether, between to-day and making the Statement in the House to-morrow, this subject will be reconsidered? Because is it not breaking the Government's neutrality? They say that they will not give help to either side. To continue the training of pilots is really a breach, and makes nonsense of the statement that no help is being given to either side in a military sense.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, perhaps I did not make it clear that these pilots are already trained pilots who are on a conversion course. Were we to stop their courses right away they would return instantly as trained pilots, and that would not help the situation.
§ BARONESS BIRKMy Lords, would the Government then keep them here for ten years?
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister for a simple affirmative or negative reply? Has ammunition ordered in this country by Israel before the commencement of the current Arab aggressive operation been denied export?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, arms which are not already on their way are in fact subject to the embargo.
§ LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that she has support from all Benches in the line the Government are taking to use their utmost influence to try to achieve a cease-fire? Is she aware that the only prospect of succeeding with that is if we are absolutely neutral as between both sides? I am sure that there is great sympathy, including my own, with the Israelis in this matter; nevertheless, is my noble friend aware that she has very great support for the line she has taken?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend very much for his words. I would only repeat to the House that the main objective of my right honourable friend and Her Majesty's 12 Government, as I said in the first Answer, is to bring this terrible fighting to an end and simultaneously to create conditions in which progress can be made towards carrying out the Security Council Resolution.
LORD JANNERMy Lords, would the noble Baroness please say whether she thinks it is morally right either from a pre-purpose or any other purpose to refuse to supply the necessary supplies to Israel which is being attacked from all sides and against whom an enormous flow of arms has been used? Is it proper that we should refuse to do anything in respect of the tanks that have been supplied and which will be useless without these parts?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government consider that we are in a stronger position to ask our allies and anybody else who would listen to come together to try to seek an end to the fighting and to create the conditions for a settlement, if we do not at the same time supply arms either to one side or the other.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that many of us welcomed the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, that we should refrain from questions to-day until we have heard the Statement from the Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office to-morrow? Is she aware that we were a little surprised that he proceeded to put questions himself and that this has led to the unfortunate exchange of questions to-day, and that many of us will reserve our questions until we have heard the Statement?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I think many noble Lords in all parts of the House would agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, has said. I was asked earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, whether there would be an opportunity for a fuller debate later in the week, and I can confirm that there will be an opportunity on Thursday. In addition we have the Statement, which has been forecast, by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which will be released to your Lordships' House.