§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government who will be the members of the British Airways Board from January 1 next.
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN)My Lords, all the present members of the Board will be continuing to serve, with the exception of Mr. Philip Lawton, the Chairman of British European Airways, and Sir Arthur Norman, one of the part-time members, who have both told my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry that they wish to retire at the end of this year. My right honourable friend has announced that he is appointing Mr. Roy Watts to the Board, to serve in the place of Mr. Lawton. I will with permission circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the names of those who will be members of the British Airways Board on January 1 next.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYNo, I am sorry, my Lords. My Question asks who will form the Board, and may we have the names now?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, with the leave of the House, by all means. The names are: Mr. D. L. Nicolson, Chairman; Sir Keith Granville, Deputy Chairman; Mr. Henry Marking, Group Managing Director; Professor Sir Ronald Edwards; Mr. A. W. Fisher; Mr. J. A. Gardiner; Mr. C. A. Herring; Mr. D. H. Glover; Mr. Peter Parker; Mr. H. Phelps; Mr. J. R. Stainton; Mr. W. A. de Vigier; Mr. R. Watts; and Mr. S. F. Wheatcroft.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord. Without obviously being a candidate, may I ask the Minister why there are no women on the Board?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the reason why there are no women at moment, obviously, is that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has not appointed any.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I am sure that my right honourable friend considers all these appointments in relation to the job that has to be performed in each particular case. I cannot give the noble Baroness the reason why my right honourable friend did not appoint a lady in this case. He must simply have felt that those whom he appointed were the best qualified.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I think the noble Lord's right honourable friend should be ashamed of himself. Secondly, is the Minister aware that really and truly—on a responsible level—it is rather degrading when Members (I do not think the Minister did) think this is a humorous remark? I am not on a humorous point. Is the Minister telling the House that a woman has not been found fit to sit on this Board? Further, is he aware that I raised this matter some six months ago, and therefore his right honourable friend, who I believe is supposed to act rather fast, has had plenty of time to consider it; and will he please look into the matter?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I think all noble Lords will agree that a requirement to appoint a woman—what is sometimes known as "the statutory woman"—is not necessarily the best way of dealing with this problem. Many women have been appointed to various Boards, and the Government have been looking at this whole question to see that women are in appropriate cases appointed to Boards. All I can say is that, while in this particular case a woman has not been appointed, the Secretary of State has attempted to appoint the best people for the job.
§ LORD HARVEY OF PRESTBURYMy Lords, without in any way being personal, may I ask whether my noble 221 friend can say if Mr. de Vigier is a British subject?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I feel sure he is, but I am afraid I cannot give a definite answer to that question without notice.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, on the subject of the best people, would not the noble Lord agree with me that the Member in this House who raises perhaps the most constructive questions on air matters is a woman; namely, my noble friend who put down this Question? Is it not a fact that we all listen to her questions, and to the answers, and fully approve her attitudes? Can the noble Lord tell me to-day, therefore, that only the appropriate people have been chosen and, by sonic coincidence, all these appear to be male?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the choice was not mine, of course; it was that of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. The noble Baroness will bear in mind that this is a Board that was appointed to run the affairs both of British European Airways and of British Overseas Airways Corporation, and that the appointments to some extent reflect that amalgamation.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, is it not a fact that the two organisations the noble Lord has mentioned employ hundreds of women—or, rather (I never exaggerate), thousands of women? The noble Lord is making the point that only men should represent these male organisations. But they are not male organisations. They probably employ more women than men.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, there are various jobs that have to be performed in these organisations and being a director is one of them. The noble Baroness will know that it is not very easy to find women as directors throughout industry as a whole.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that the Board also should reflect, or take an interest in, the consumer? There are many thousands, if not millions, of women who, with children, fly on British aircraft. Would there not be a sense that their interests were being taken into account if a woman was on the Board?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I take note of what the noble Lord has said and I will certainly pass it on to my right honourable friend.
§ LORD ROYLEMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that his Answer is altogether out of line with the Government's own Consultative Document which we debated a fortnight ago, and could not we have anticipated some of the things the Government might be wanting to do?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I must repeat that it all depends on the job to be done. We are appointing women wherever we think it appropriate to do so.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I fully agree with what the Minister said about the statutory woman. This House is a reasonable House. Does the Minister not see that in public affairs we shall never make any progress so long as the question of women being on Boards is thought to be a question of appointing a statutory woman? Is it quite impossible to get into the heads of people who make these choices that it is not a question of a statutory woman, or a statutory man; it is a question of the best people? Furthermore, if I may trespass on the time of the House, is the noble Lord aware that I once knew an organisation very well (and it is not Courtaulds) which really thought that it was fair and gave women a chance, but so ingrained in their subconscious was the thought that women were not equal to doing the top job that when they thought of candidates they never thought of women? Will the Minister really attend to that attitude?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I certainly will see that my right honourable friend takes the second part of that question into account. With the first part, I must say that I am entirely in agreement and it seems to me that it is exactly what I have been saying.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, although my noble friend knows that I am bitterly anti-"Women's Lib." on almost every occasion, does he realise that quite a number of Members of this House think it regrettable that the noble Baroness herself has not been appointed?