§ 2.41 p.m.
§ LORD O'HAGANMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they intend to ratify the I.U.C.N. Convention regulating international trade in endangered species of wild flora and fauna.
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (BARONESS YOUNG)My Lords, we are examining the implications of the Convention in detail. If the complex issues it raises can be satisfactorily resolved, it certainly is the Government's intention to ratify.
LORD HAGANMy Lords, since officials of Her Majesty's Government and of Customs and Excise played a great part in the conference which resulted in this Convention, is it likely that this process will be soon completed? Will it also be carried on by Her Majesty's Government in the context of the E.E.C. environmental programme which is to be submitted by the Commissioner to the Council before the end of the year?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I can give an assurance that the examination of the issues is proceeding with all possible speed. As to the second question asked by the noble Lord, one of the points which is being looked at is the compatibility of the Convention with 5 our existing obligations, and in particular those connected with the E.E.C.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, would not the noble Baroness agree that every month that goes by puts another species in danger? Is it not therefore a matter of great urgency that this Convention should be ratified soon?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, as I have already stated, the examination is proceeding as rapidly as possible. But there are a number of quite complicated legal and administrative problems to be resolved.
§ LORD O'HAGANMy Lords, is the noble Baroness saying that the only remaining problems are legal and administrative, and that once they have been overcome Her Majesty's Government have no objection to ratifying this Convention?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, once these problems are overcome, as I said, it is the intention of the Government to ratify.
§ LORD KENNETMy Lords, the Question refers to ratification and the noble Baroness has spoken about examination of the terms. Did the Government examine the terms of this Convention while it was under negotiation?
§ BARONESS YOUNGYes, my Lord, the Government examined the terms; but the kind of problems are, for example, whether powers under existing legislation are adequate to fulfil our obligations under the Convention, and the economic implications for trade and industry as well as the practical problems for the Customs and Excise of identifying parts and derivatives of animals.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, the noble Baroness said that one of the objections is that the existing legislation may not be sufficient to enforce it. Is not this easily remedied by introducing new legislation?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, my understanding on the present examination is that existing legislation is adequate; but it was necessary to look at the law closely to make sure we could enforce the Convention.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, could the noble Baroness say what she has in mind when she talks about "derivatives" of animals? Does she mean smaller animals or rhinoceros horn? Or does she mean Argus pheasant feathers? Would she be kind enough to tell her right honourable friends, and the officials who are concerned, that this is matter on which your Lordships feel that there is great urgency.
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, the Convention applies to "readily recognisable parts and derivates". The answer to Lord Shackleton's question is that derivates are furs and skins, ivory and, in flowers, the flowers used for scent.