§ 2.44 p.m.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government if they have investigated the report of an agreement to sell to the South African Republic fifty military training aircraft manufactured in Italy fitted with Rolls-Royce Viper 632 turbojet engines.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)No, my Lords. The supply to South Africa of military equipment made in Italy is a matter for the Italian Government, who have denied reports that they intend to sell these aircraft to South Africa.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, is not this proposal a breach of the understanding that while there should be supplies in defence of the Cape route they should not be made available for internal suppression? Is it not also a repudiation of the United Nations decision to which Italy was a signatory, forbidding such sales? Is the noble Baroness really say- 350 ing that Italy has now decided that these sales will not be allowed?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, we are following the practice of the previous Government in not trying to impose conditions over the export of locally manufactured Rolls-Royce engines from Italy to South Africa or to third countries.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that many of these pilots have to fly extremely sophisticated jet aeroplanes from Cape Town to Durban and round into the Indian Ocean, that they survey 1,000 miles of coastline which is absolutely essential to the life of Europe and especially of Britain, and is it not a very good thing that these pilots should be trained on Rolls-Royce engines, which are the best in the world?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I would agree with my noble friend that Rolls-Royce engines are the best in the world. I understand that the Italian firm Piagio have manufactured these aero engines under licence from Rolls-Royce since 1960.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, while it is a little difficult to understand the significance of the noble Baroness's reply, which I think I welcome, is it not the case that during the period of the Labour Government the Piagio company undertook not to sell planes equipped with Rolls-Royce engines to South Africa?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIENo, my Lords; as I think I said in an earlier reply, these particular aero engines have in fact been manufactured under licence from Rolls-Royce since 1960. It would be an entirely separate matter were this country to be considering the export of an engine direct to South Africa.
§ LORD ALPORTMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that if we refused to sell anything to any country of which the Labour Party disapproved we should not in fact be conducting any trade at all in the world?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEYes, my Lords.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, can the noble Baroness assure us that South Africa will be given spare parts; that the Government will not do what they did to Israel?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEI think, my Lords, that is another question.
§ THE MARQUESS OF WINCHESTERMy Lords, would Her Majesty's Government further agree that it would be in the interests of the United Kingdom for South Africa to be able to defend itself, and therefore that she should be equipped, whether from the United Kingdom or elsewhere?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, we are in terms of the Question asked about equipment made in Italy, and this is a matter for the Italian Government.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I want to get this quite clear. Do I understand from the noble Baroness's original Answer that these planes are not to be sent to South Africa?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEYes, my Lords.