THE LONDON UNDERGROUND SYSTEM (Hansard, 6 November 1973)

§ LORD CHORLEY
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, the running of the London Underground system is the statutory responsibility of the London Transport Executive.

§ LORD CHORLEY
My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his reply, 241 may I ask whether he realises that it will cause real disappointment to thousands of workers who over the last month or two have found themselves stranded on the platforms of the Underground railways? Does he not agree that the loss of the time of these busy workers in London, day after day, is a grave loss to the community; not only the loss of time but the frustration and fatigue which is caused by having to wait about for long periods on platforms where there is no real seating accommodation? Incidentally, if this is to go on, as I gather from the Minister's reply, it may go on for a long time, because he says nothing whatever about bringing it to an end, will the noble Lord impress upon the London Transport Executive that they should attend to the need for seating on these platforms, where I have myself, since the House resumed, stood for periods of half an hour? If the Minister himself were subject to this he would realise how intolerable it is. Does he not agree that the shortage, of staff, which is the cause of the trouble, is ample evidence that people are getting better wages in employment which is presumably of much less value to the community? The transport system is essential to the working of the community. Does the Minister not agree that this shows the completely ineffective nature of the Government's arrangements in the so-called Phase 3, and will he bring it to an end as quickly as possible?

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, we do accept that there is a real problem of labour shortage in London. This is partly the penalty we pay for our success in reducing unemployment. I am well aware of the reduced service; I often use the Underground myself. But, as the Prime Minister said the other day in another place, if everyone is treated as a special case, nobody will be any better off under Stage 3. I think London Transport are undertaking a recruiting campaign, and one wishes them luck.

§ LORD CHAMPION
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Government will want more than luck in this matter? Clearly, what is happening to London Transport is directly due to the counter-inflation policy and will be added to by the rigidity under Phase 3. It is also due to the Government's housing policy 242 which causes the shortage of houses to rent within London.

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, I accept that the shortage of housing has a direct bearing on this problem, and this is again largely a matter for the G.L.C. Of course, there are also staff shortages in other essential industries in London.

§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE
My Lords, when the Minister says that the London Transport Executive is responsible, would he agree that the London Transport Executive is itself responsible to the Minister who is responsible to Parliament, and therefore there is a perfect right for Members to bring up such matters as the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, has raised?

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, I accept that there is every right for noble Lords to raise this question.

§ LORD SHACKLETON
My Lords, in view of the dramatic effect on the Prime Minister of the hold-up in Whitehall some time ago, could he perhaps arrange for the Prime Minister to go by Underground?

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, I am sure the Prime Minister knows our Underground system probably as well as the noble Lord does. Perhaps modernisation is one of the things we should hope for. On modern lines, like the Victoria Line, there are no hold ups, as noble Lords will be aware.

§ LORD POPPLEWELL
My Lords, while we accept what the Minister said—that the direct responsibility is on London Transport—has not the Minister himself responsibility for ensuring that London Transport's conditions of employment and wages are sufficient to attract employees for the transport industry? The Government have expressed doubts about further modernisation of certain sections of London Transport. Is it not time the Minister brought pressure to hear on his colleagues with a view to easing the position for the London Transport workers and for the commuters who have to put up with these intolerable conditions?

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, on the particular point the 243 noble Lord raises, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State is awaiting the views of the London Rail Study on the future railway needs of London before finally deciding whether to go ahead with a great deal more capital investment. The noble Lord is not correct in saying that we are not interested in further modernisation. We are. Shortage of staff is general in London for all essential works, and this is a problem it is very hard to overcome.

§ LORD AVEBURY
My Lords, does the Minister agree that when petrol rationing is introduced, as soon as tomorrow's by-elections are out of the way, London transport, Underground and buses, will become much more important to the community even than they are to-day? Does the Minister still insist that the operations of London Transport are a statutory matter for the Executive of London Transport and not for the Government, or have they any plans whatsoever for improving these services during the emergency?

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, I do not think we should be alarmist and expect an emergency. I. for one, do not. I hope the general public will heed the Prime Minister's request to use less petrol. If they avoid peak times of travelling they will still find that London Transport can cope very admirably. on both the roads and the Underground.

§ LORD AVEBURY
My Lords, is that not a perfectly ridiculous reply? The noble Lord is aware that people's travelling times are governed by their employment; they cannot travel off-peak, as London Transport and the Government would like them to do, unless a lead is given by Ministers. What is he going to do about it?

§ LORD CHORLEY
My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is in the off-peak periods that these long delays of half an hour are occurring?

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, for certain services I accept that Lord Chorley's statement is correct, and I am sure London Transport Executive will have noted that in certain 244 stations there is not enough seating to cope with these delays.

§ THE EARL OF ONSLOW
My Lords, is not the whole point of the Government's economic policy that the lower-paid workers, like the London Transport people, get greater privileges in pay rises than some of the better paid people like car workers?

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, there are efficiency schemes built into Stage 3 which can help in these matters. There are anti-social hours schemes which can help as well.

§ LORD SEGAL
My Lords, can the Minister indicate quite simply what state of chaos will have to be reached by the Underground before the Government are prepared to accept responsibility?

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, I think the noble Lord is being unduly alarmist. There is not a state of chaos.

§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD
My Lords, would not my noble friend agree that this is a question of inflation, that Her Majesty's Government are now taking steps to contain public expenditure, and that when they contain public expenditure we shall then get employees on the Tube and in the public transport industries? The reason is that no man is going to drive in the Tube if he can earn £100 a week on a building site. Once you cure inflation you will come down to filling these lower-paid posts.

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, the questions that my noble friend asked me are questions with which I would completely agree, and the House will be grateful to him.

LORD BELHAVEN AND STENTON
My Lords, my noble friend says that there is no emergency; could he say what the Government will do if, as some of us think, in the next week or two there is an emergency?

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, that is a completely hypothetical question. I am sure that the London Transport Executive will be able to cope with the position.