§ 2.37 p.m.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
1192§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what benefits have yet accrued to the British public from membership of the European Communities.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)My Lords, membership of the European Communities brings econmomic benefits of increased growth and employment. Political benefits include the power to influence the world's trade and monetary arrangements, on which this country depends.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, I am much indebted to the noble Baroness for calling attention to benefits which I had not personally appreciated; neither had many of my noble friends. May I ask her whether she will give an explanation of two features of the situation? The first is that when we joined the Common Market dazzling hopes were held out to us that our exporters would have this great Market open to them, with great compensating benefit to this country. In fact, it seems that the boot has been on the other foot. During the first quarter of this year imports from Common Market countries have come flooding in and, while exports have also increased modestly, the net result has been that the adverse balance of trade has been very nearly doubled.
Secondly, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she can explain why her right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said on the radio the other day that it would be very wrong for him to mention any matters of definite benefit to ourselves? Can it be that it would be wrong because there are no such matters, and that therefore, if he were to try to list them, he would be making a statement which, in what I understand to be the current American idiom, would be inoperative?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIENo, my Lords. In answer to the first question about the balance of trade, the noble Baroness will of course be aware that there has been a 20 per cent. reduction in customs duty between the old and the new Member-countries of the Communities, which has applied from April 1. Of course these 1193 tariff reductions help us both ways. They certainly help us to keep down the cost of living. But the fact is that now, after a decade of uncertainty as to Britain's economic and political future, confidence has at last been achieved for our companies to encourage investment. I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton, will realise that she cannot expect everything to happen in only five months. As regards the statement of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, I am afraid that I do not have the advantage of an insight into my right honourable friend's mind, but the fact remains that there are many matters at present under discussion which will, I am quite sure, in time bring us very great benefits.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, did the noble Baroness have the pleasure this morning, anent the benefits of the Common Market, of listening to that wonderful little radio programme, "The Living World"? Had she listened this morning, she would have heard a yodelling blackbird. May it not be that that blackbird was a manifestation of things yet to come, and that as a result of our joining the Common Market British blackbirds will now be yodelling Tyrolean yodels?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I listen to the blackbirds every morning because I happen to live behind Smith Square; and I also listen to the owl.
§ LORD MAYBRAY-KINGMy Lords, can the noble Baroness assure us that the new regional policy introduced by our Commissioner, Mr. George Thomson, will be more favourable to Britain than the national regional policy that we are abandoning?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I understand that this matter is still under discussion in some detail. But it is also a fact that my noble friend the Leader of the House is to make a Statement later this afternoon.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, the noble Baroness has referred to the tariff reductions from April I, and to the reductions—which some of us have not noticed—in the cost of living. Is it not remarkable that the retail price 1194 index rose during April by much more than it has risen for a number of years past?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, it happens to be a fact that most of this rise, which is of course of great concern to us all, is attributable to increases in world prices and is not the result of our membership of the Community.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, arising out of the noble Baroness's Answer, could she enlighten your Lordships' House as to where, as a consequence of our entry into the Common Market, there has been a reduction in the cost of living?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the Government have no cause whatsoever to revise their estimate that joining the Communities would involve us in increases averaging about 2p in the pound every year of the six-year transitional period. The average has in fact been less.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, in her first reply the noble Baroness said that, as a consequence of our entry into the Common Market, there had been a reduction in the cost of living. I asked the noble Baroness whether she would tell us where.
BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR BELHELVIEMy Lords, I regret to say that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, could not have been paying his usual attention to what I said. Therefore, perhaps I may repeat it. I said:
Membership of the European Communities brings economic benefits of increased growth and employment",and that thePolitical benefits include the power to influence the world's trade and monetary arrangements, on which this country depends.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, would the noble Baroness now refer to her answer when she originally referred to the cost of living?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, on the cost of living I said that most of this rise is attributable to increases in world prices.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the last thing I would do, or dare to do, is to accuse 1195 her of being dishonest; but would it not be more honest and fair to the British public to admit that so far no benefits have accrued to the United Kingdom and the people of this country? Would it not be far better to say that? Indeed, when she replied to my noble friend Lady Wootton and said that joining the Common Market brings benefits, did she not in fact mean that so far there have been no benefits, but that she has faith that some day benefits will accrue?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I have faith that in the future greater benefits will accrue; but I said that we have at last got rid of the uncertainty as to Britain's future. One can see there is increased investment; one can see that there are more jobs available; and one can also see, if one looks around and is not prejudiced in this matter, that this is partly due (I was very modest about it, of course) to this Government's policies.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that reply about more jobs being available, but if that is due to our entry into the Common Market and members of Her Majesty's Government take credit for more jobs being available, they are not telling the whole truth.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I did not mention the Government's policies until the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, mentioned that matter himself, but I will certainly now take credit, as he suggests, for the Government's policies, which have brought about a continued growth rate of over 5 per cent.
§ LORD SAINSBURYMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that there are some Members on this side of the House who still have faith in the long-term benefit to the standard of living of the people in this country of our entry into the E.E.C.?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, may I say that I am most grateful to the noble Lord, because we also have great faith, which he shares, in the final success of our joining the European Community.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords—
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)My Lords, may I just say this? I do not wish to stand between the noble Baroness and the House for more than a second, but I think it would be right, after the noble Baroness has put her second supplementary, if we passed on; otherwise, this discussion on long-term and short-term will certainly be continued in the long-term.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, would the noble Baroness be good enough to tell me when I may again put down this Question, with the hope of a more optimistic Answer? Would she not also think it wise to inform her right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster that, since she is not afraid to mention the benefits that she sees, he might speak with the same voice, so that the Government may for once be speaking unanimously?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the Government always speak unanimously. Just occasionally some of us are more optimistic than others.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, would the noble Baroness answer the first part of my supplementary? When may I put the Question down again?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, naturally, I shall be glad to answer any Question which the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, puts down, but perhaps she would give us a little more time than five months.