AIR TRANSPORT: CONSIDERATION OF USERS' COMPLAINTS (Hansard, 22 May 1973)

§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN)
My Lords, Her Majesty's Government, with the approval of Parliament, have imposed on the Civil Aviation Authority the duty of ensuring the widest possible consultation with all concerned with the civil air transport industry. This the Authority is doing. The particular machinery to be used for this purpose is of course a matter for the Authority.

§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY
My Lords, should I be correct in assuming that the Minister has read Cmnd. 5067, the Nationalised Industries Relations with the Public Report? This concerned the electricity and gas industries, the National Coal Board, British Railways and the Post Office. Is the Minister aware that the Government accepted a recommendation from that Report, that: Nationalised industries are expected to discuss Me broad outlines of any major changes policy with the bodies representing consumers before taking final decisions. That being the case, and in view of the latest developments concerning the West London Air Terminal, could the Minister please tell me why the nationalised 1088 air industry and the air users, or air consumers, should be denied these facilities?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, it will not have escaped the attention of the noble Baroness, who always informs herself so thoroughly on these matters, that the Select Committee on Nationalised industries in their inquiries did not cover civil aviation, and it cannot be assumed that if they had they would have extended their conclusions on industries which are statutory monopolies to civil aviation, which is not. The Civil Aviation Authority is a regulatory body. It does consult; it consults with individual bodies representing consumers, mainly on specific points, and, as I have said, it is a matter for the Authority to work out the best way of consulting with the consumers.

§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY
My Lords, is the Minister aware that to the public a nationalised industry is a nationalised industry? May I furthermore ask him this, because I am in rather a difficulty?—possibly the noble Earl the Lord Privy Seal could help me. I have a letter sent to me by the representative of B.E.A. coach drivers, saying that the information given by B.E.A. concerning the late running of coaches to West London Air Terminal was quite false and that this decision was not taken because of the late running of the buses. As this is the withdrawal of a consumer interest, how can I get this letter looked at and ensure that publicity is given to it?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, the provisions in this respect are that where there are complaints about the nationalised industry or independent airlines and operators the right course for a consumer —I take it that in this case the noble Baroness is acting as a consumer—would be to write to the Civil Aviation Authority.

§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY
My Lords, I do not doubt that the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, will be very glad to have a letter from me on this matter.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that the bringing together of two very good airlines, B.O.A.C. and B.E.A., means that the 1089 management and direction are bound to be even further away from the everyday user of both airlines? The noble Lord did say, did he not, that there is a duty to consult. Could the noble Lord say how these two bodies, or the one body, do in fact consult consumers?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, this is a rather different question from the one I have been asked, because the Question is whether there should be an Air Travellers' National Council. The point I was making was that it is not only bodies such as the B.A.B. about whom complaints might be made. As to B.E.A., it has had on its Board a member of the Board who was there specifically to represent the consumer interests. The B.A.B. case is a rather different one from the general case of representations as to civil aviation.

§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEK
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that some of us believe that, to get the human touch, the best people in aviation, despite the fact that it is under (I prefer the word) public ownership, would, if they were approached, agree with my noble friend's original Question? Is not the noble Lord aware that all of us all over the world are seeing this remoteness of industry in this technological explosion? As usual, this Government are sitting in a train rushing God knows where while they are in the caboose looking backwards!

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, surely it has to be remembered that the Civil Aviation Authority is a regulatory board set up to look after the interests of users of transport as well as those who provide transport services, so that it is to the Civil Aviation Authority that complaints should be made. It is for the Civil Aviation Authority to consult with such bodies as in fact they do consult with, the chambers of commerce, the Regional Economic Planning Councils, the British Tourist Authority, the T.U.C. and consumers' associations, as cases arise.

§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE
My Lords, may we ask the noble Lord whether, before giving his Answer, he had consulted his right honourable friend the Minister for Trade and Consumer Affairs?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
Certainly, my Lords; I did.

§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY
My Lords, the House is very patient, but may I ask whether the Minister realises that we really are in a difficulty, and that we keep getting fobbed off by these answers. Is the Minister aware—I think I am correct, but the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter can correct me if I am not—that, at the recent discussion about the consumer facilities at West London Air Terminal, the Civil Aviation Authority told me that this is not a matter for them. So if it is not a matter for them, are B.E.A. to sit in judgment on themselves and is there to be no outside authority to consider the consumers?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, the duty was laid on the Civil Aviation Authority, by the Guidance, to see that airline services are provided and to look after the interests of consumers. If that is the answer which the noble Baroness was given, I suggest that she takes up the matter direct with the Chairman of the Civil Aviation Authority.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl the Leader of the House, or the Government Chief Whip, whether they would provide time if my noble friend introduced a Private Member's Bill for the purpose of setting up such a consumer organisation? I hope that the noble Earl can respond generously to that suggestion, so that we can test the opinion of your Lordships' House.