HL Deb 15 May 1973 vol 342 cc720-40

Penalty for offences

1. A person guilty of an offence under this Act for which no other penalty is specified shall be liable—

  1. (a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £400; and
  2. (b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or both.

Time limit for prosecutions

2.—(1) No prosecution for an offence under this Act shall be commenced after the expiration of three years from the commission of the offence or one year from its discovery by the prosecutor which ever is the earlier.

(2) Notwithstanding anything in section 104 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1952, a magistrates' court may try an information for an offence under this Act if the information was laid at any time within twelve months from the commission of the offence.

(3) Notwithstanding anything in section 23 of the Summary Jurisdiction (Scotland) Act 1954 (limitation of time for proceedings in statutory offences) summary proceedings in Scotland for an offence under this Act may be commenced at any time within twelve months from the time when the offence was committed, and subsection (2) of the said section 23 shall apply for the purposes of this sub-paragraph as it applies for the purposes of that section.

(4) Sub-paragraph (2) above shall apply to Northern Ireland as if for the references to section 104 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1952 and the trial and laying of an information there were substituted respectively references to section 34 of the Magistrates' Courts Act (Northern Ireland) 1964 and the hearing and determination and making of a complaint.

(5) Sub-paragraphs (2) and (3) above do not apply where—

  1. (a) the offence was one under section 1(1)(a) of this Act and was committed by the making of an oral statement; or
  2. (b) the offence was one under section 1(1)(b) of this Act and—
    1. (i) the description was applied by an oral statement; or
    2. (ii) the description is deemed to have been applied to the article concerned by virtue of subsection (7)(b) of the said section 1 and the article was supplied in pursuance of an oral request.

Offences by corporations

3.—(1) Where an offence under this Act which has been committed by a body corporate is proved to have been committed with the consent and connivance of, or to be attributable to any neglect on the part of, any director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body corporate, or any person who was purporting to act in any such capacity, he as well as the body corporate shall be guilty of that offence and shall be liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly.

(2) In this paragraph "director" in relation to any body corporate established by or under any enactment for the purpose of carrying on under national ownership any industry or part of an industry or undertaking, being a body corporate whose affairs are managed by the members thereof, means a member of that body corporate.

Offences due to fault of other person

4. Where the commission by any person of an offence under this Act is due to the act or default of some other person that other person shall be guilty of the offence, and a person may be charged with and convicted of the offence by virtue of this paragraph whether or not proceedings are taken against the first-mentioned person.

Innocent publication of advertisement

5. In proceedings for an offence under this Act committed by the publication of an advertisement it shall be a defence for the person charged to prove that he is a person whose business it is to publish or arrange for the publication of advertisements and that he received the advertisement for publication in the ordinary course of business and did not know and had no reason to suspect that its publication would amount to an offence under this Act.

Defence in proceedings under section 1

  1. 6. In any proceedings for an offence under section 1 of this Act, it shall be a defence for the person charged to prove that—
    1. (a) in reliance on information supplied by another person, he believed that the article concerned was one which was exempt from hallmarking by virtue of Part II of Schedule 1 to this Act; and
    2. (b) that he could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained that it was not such an article.").—(Lord Sandys.)

On Question. Amendment agreed to.

Clause 8 [Application of certain provisions of Trade Descriptions Act 1968]:

5.2 p.m.

LORD SANDYS moved Amendment No. 45: Leave out Clause 8 and insert the following new clause:

Enforcement of Act

".—(1) It shall be the duty of every local weights and measures authority to enforce the provisions of this Act within their area; and section 26 of the Act of 1968 (enforcing authorities) shall apply in relation to the enforcement of this Act, by such an authority, as it applies in relation to the enforcement of that Act.

(2) The Council and the assay offices may also enforce the provisions of this Act.

(3) Subject to subsection (7) below, the following provisions of the Act of 1968 shall apply in relation to the enforcement of this Act as they apply in relation to the enforcement of the Act of 1968, that is to say—

(4) Any reference, in the provisions of the Act of 1968 mentioned in subsection (3) above (other than those of subsections (2) to (4) of the said section 30), to a local weights and measures authority and a duly authorised officer of such an authority shall be construed, in relation to the enforcement of this Act, as including respectively a reference to the Council and an assay office and a duly authorised officer of the Council and of an assay office.

(5) Nothing in this section shall be taken as authorising the Council or an assay office to institute proceedings in Scotland for an offence.

(6) Subsection (1) above shall not apply in relation to the enforcement of this Act in Northern Ireland but, in addition to the power given by subsection (2) above, it shall be the duty of the Ministry of Commerce for Northern Ireland to enforce this Act in Northern Ireland.

(7) For the purposes of the enforcement of this Act in Northern Ireland by the said Ministry, sections 27 to 29 and 33 of the Act of 1968 shall apply as if for references to a local weights and measures authority and any officer of such an authority there were substituted respectively references to the Ministry and any of its officers."

The noble Lord said: We come to Clause 8 of the Bill, and once again a complete clause has been removed from the Bill, redrafted by Parliamentary counsel and replaced within its context. There are a number of alterations, and I think it will be for the convenience of the House if I go through them.

The proposed new Clause 8 constitutes a reproduction of that part of the present clause, which incorporates Sections 26 to 33 of the Trade Descriptions Act 1968. The new clause provides for the enforcement of the Bill by the local weights and measures authorities and by the British Hallmarking Council and the assay offices. Subsection (1) reflects the duty laid on the weights and measures authorities by Section 26 of the Trade Descriptions Act 1968, as regards the enforcement of that Act. Subsection (2) enables the Council—that is, the Hallmarking Council—and assay offices also to act as enforcing authorities. This is an interesting point. Previously assay offices have brought actions against those who in the view of assay offices have contravened the law. As prosecutions in this country are nearly always personal prosecutions, the name of the assay office is normally omitted and the name of the person bringing the prosecution is that which relates to the case. A few years ago there was the very interesting case of Westwood v. Cann and this clause would enable that procedure of prosecution to continue. It is an important point, but I do not think I need dwell on it further.

Subsection (5) applies to the Council and any assay office the same restriction as is imposed by Section 26(5) of the Act of 1968 on local weights and immures authorities. It is a principle of the criminal law in Scotland that no criminal proceedings may be instituted otherwise than by the Lord Advocate, and it is necessary to apply to him before proceedings can be commenced. Subsection (6) provides, in effect, that local weights and measures authorities shall not have power to enforce the provisions of the Bill in Northern Ireland; but instead, the Ministry of Commerce for Northern Ireland shall be the principal enforcing authority although the Council and the assay offices can also act in the enforcement of the Bill in Northern Ireland. I beg to move.

LORD DRUMALBYN

May I perhaps say a word here, because the renumbering of the Amendments to-day has put us in a slight difficulty. This Amendment provides for the leaving out of Clause 8 of offences due to the fault of other persons. Perhaps I may take the opportunity to say here that the provisions in the long Amendment we have just passed follow the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 model, apart from the rather limited third party defences. But the basic offence, that of using the description "gold, silver, or platinum", in relation to unhallmarked articles, is one which any trader could easily avoid by the exercise of only moderate care, and therefore he needs no defence against it. Where it can be shown that an offence that has occurred was due to the act or default of another person, that other person can be proceeded against by virtue of paragraph 4 of the Amendment we have just passed. The style of defences provided by the Weights and Measures Act 1963 is not appropriate to this Bill since it is unsuited to proceedings taken on indictment, a possibility for which this Bill rightly provides. I hope that answers my noble friend's point.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clauses 9 to 11 agreed to.

Clause 12 [The British Hallmarking Council]:

LORD SANDYS

Once again these Amendments, Nos. 46 and 47, are linked in drafting, and I suggest to your Lordships that we take them together. They are purely drafting Amendments. I beg to move Amendments Nos. 46 and 47.

Amendments moved— Page 12, line 21. after ("shall") insert ("in addition to the functions specifically conferred on them by or under any other provisions of this Act"). Page 12, line 33, leave out ("metals") and insert ("metal").—(Lord Sandys.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD SANDYS moved Amendment No. 48: Page 12, line 40, leave out paragraph (d).

The noble Lord said: This Amendment, for the deletion of paragraph (d) of subsection (2), is also a drafting Amendment consequential on the fuller treatment given by the Amendment inserting the new Clause 4(4) and the new Clause 4A(7) regarding the determination by the Hallmarking Council of appeals made to them against decisions of assay offices refusing to hallmark an article or, as the case may be, to give consent to an alteration proposed to be made to a hallmarked article. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.

Schedule 3 [The British Hallmarking Council]:

5.10 p.m.

LORD SANDYS moved Amendment No. 49:

Page 27, line 30. leave out from beginning to end of line 12 on page 28 and insert—

2.—(1) Ten of the members of the Council shall be appointed by the Secretary of State. (2) Three of the members appointed by the Secretary of State shall be persons appearing to him to be suitably qualified by virtue of their knowledge of, and experience in, organisations established, or activities carried on, for the protection of the consumer.

(3) Four of the members appointed by the Secretary of State, but not more than four, shall be persons appearing to him to be suitably qualified by virtue of their engagement wholly or mainly in trading in, or manufacture of, articles of precious metal.

(4) Before making any appointment under sub-paragraph (3) of this paragraph the Secretary of State shall consult the assay offices and such bodies representing persons engaged wholly or mainly in trading in, or manufacture of, articles of precious metal as he thinks appropriate.

3.—(1) Six of the members of the Council shall be appointed by the assay offices as follows, that is to say—

  1. (a) two of those members shall be appointed by the London Assay Office;
  2. (b) one of those members shall be appointed by the Edinburgh Assay Office;
  3. (c) two of those members shall be appointed by the Birmingham Assay Office; and
  4. (d) one of those members shall be appointed by the Sheffield Assay Office.

(2) Any person appointed under this paragraph shall be a person appearing to the assay office appointing him to be suitably qualified by virtue of his knowledge and experience of hallmarking.

(3) A person engaged wholly or mainly in trading in, or in articles manufactured of, precious metal shall not be appointed under this paragraph."

The noble Lord said: I think it would be for the convenience of the Committee if at this stage I went into some detail about the British Hallmarking Council. First of all, I should like to express the warm appreciation of those concerned in negotiations with my noble friend, Lord Drumalbyn, for the time and trouble he took to examine our case and to reach a solution satisfactory to the parties concerned. This matter has been a particularly difficult one to resolve. We are concerned with the right to appoint representatives, and the Amendment as set down is to alter the constitution of the Council so that the assay offices have restored to them the right to appoint which they had in the original Bill introduced in the House of Commons. There is, of course, a modification in the numbers of representatives. Nevertheless, the structure of the Hallmarking Council, as revised, is thought to be a satisfactory solution to a very difficult matter of checks and balances.

My noble friend, Lord Drumalbyn, will recollect that during our visit to Goldsmiths' Hall only a few days ago we entered a room in which very careful micro-balancing was carried out in deciding upon articles to be hallmarked. Here the checks and balances between the number of representatives of the trade, those appointed by the Minister to represent the consumers on the Hallmarking Council, and those to represent the assay offices, are somewhat similar to those by which we saw articles being judged in Goldsmiths' Hall. The conclusion which I think one can reach is satisfactory, to the extent that the assay offices will continue to exert a degree of influence upon the Hallmarking Council, in keeping with their very long existence for establishing the probity of hallmarking of articles in this country. I should like to point out that under the Schedule the assay offices are meeting all expenses; not a penny has to be spent from revenue funds from the Treasury on the management or functioning of the Hallmarking Council—not a penny of taxpayers' money. This in itself is a small justification but a definite justification for having a right of representation by the assay offices on the new body to be established. This first Amendment of a series, Amendment No. 49, is straightforward and foreshadows a group of further Amendments. Having expressed our warm appreciation to my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn and his colleagues in the Ministry, I beg to move.

LORD DRUMALBYN

This is perhaps a matter on which I should say a word, because it is one of the two subjects which appeared to be likely to give rise to some dissension at this stage of the Bill. I said on the Second Reading that the Government attached importance to the appointments to the Council being made by the Secretary of State, apart from the two additional members which the Council, once it is established, may co-opt. The reason for that importance was that the Government felt that the Council should be shown to be an independent body, not only in this country but in dealing with other countries, who very often have hallmarking bodies as official bodies—that is, State bodies. It was never our intention that the Secretary of State should simply appoint whom he thought fit, irrespective of the wishes of the assay offices. Of course, as the Bill now stands, it provides for recommendations to be received from the assay offices. We took it for granted that unless there were some very exceptional case those recommendations would be accepted, and those would be the people who would be appointed by the Secretary of State. That did not satisfy my noble friend, and the consequence is that this Amendment has been put down after discussion. It provides for the assay offices to appoint their own members.

The majority of the Council will be appointed by the Secretary of State. The assay offices will appoint six, and the Council will be able to co-opt two more. Of the ten members of the Council to be appointed by the Secretary of State, three will be: persons appearing to him to be suitably qualified by virtue of their knowledge of, and experience in, organisations established, or activities carried on, for the protection of the consumer". Four of the members from the trade will be: persons appearing to him to be suitably qualified by virtue of their engagement wholly or mainly in trading in, or manufacture of, articles of precious metal". The remaining three will be persons representing the general public in one way or another, people who can make a special contribution to the Council without actually having the qualifications laid down in the other sub-paragraphs.

I believe, with my noble friend, that this compromise is a satisfactory one to all parties, and I have every confidence that it will work. I might be accused of being ungracious if I were to say that we on our side do not think it makes all that difference, because the result would be very much the same, but I understand and sympathise with the attitude of the assay offices.

VISCOUNT AMORY

At the time of the Second Reading debate some of us were not at all happy about the proposals in the Bill for appointing the Council. It seemed to us that the Secretary of State was proposing to keep an unnecessary degree of control in his own hands. Therefore we are very grateful indeed to my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn for having taken the trouble to see whether he could meet the wishes of the assay offices; and this very satisfactory compromise is the happy outcome.

VISCOUNT RUNCIMAN OF DOXFORD

As one who had something to say on this matter on Second Reading, I should like to thank both my noble friends Lord Drumalbyn and Lord Sandys for working out this present arrangement with which I, for one, am perfectly satisfied.

BARONESS PHILLIPS

I, too, am delighted that the trade has also been recognised, because that is only sensible. But I want to ask the Minister whether the words, Three of the members appointed by the Secretary of State shall be persons appearing to him to be suitably qualified by virtue of their knowledge of, and experience in, organisations established and so on, will exclude a consumer organisation set up by the Government, because there are now remarkably few in number which are ad hoc bodies.

LORD DRUMALBYN

No; the words are certainly not intended to do that. It is not intended that officials should serve, but if they are persons serving on an advisory committee, or something of that kind, I think they would be activities "carried on for the protection of the consumer".

LORD MAY

I also am very grateful to see that this Amendment makes some allowance for members of the trade. But I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, whether he will consider defining a little more precisely how the trade four will be made up, because there are regional considerations to be taken into account, apart from all the various break-ups in different parts of the trade, such as retailing, manufacturing and so on. Can the noble Lord give some guarantee to areas and branches of the trade, which would be of great use to many of us?

LORD DRUMALBYN

I take note of what my noble friend has said, but it is difficult to accommodate the various regions, interests and the like when there are only four members to be appointed. That is one reason why there is provision for consultation, and paragraph 4 states: …the Secretary of State shall consult the assay offices and such bodies representing persons engaged wholly or mainly in trading in, or manufacture of, articles of precious metal as he thinks appropriate. I hope my noble friend will accept that the assay offices know a great deal about this subject, and may know a great deal more than the Secretary of State. The appointments are left in the hands of the Secretary of State, but I am sure that the consultations will be as wide as possible. I do not think that it will be possible to lay down more precise details as to how those four will be divided between the various sections of the trade. I am quite prepared to' have another look at this point between now and Report stage, and if my noble friend has certain views to express I shall be very glad to hear them.

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH

In supporting my noble friend in this Amendment I should make my position reasonably clear, particularly in the light of the assurance which my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn has given. My support for this Amendment is on the understanding that it is something of a compromise solution, because I thought I made it fairly clear on Second Reading that the retail side of the industry was deserving of firm representation, particularly in view of the fact that although the assay offices contribute the monies towards the operation of the Council, it is, in the first place, the first consumer, the retailer, who will buy the goods from the manufacturer after they have been assayed, and the retailer will thereby contribute towards the Council; as, indeed, the ultimate consumer will support the three members who are concerned with consumers' interests.

The trade is somewhat fragmented. One can quickly think of four rather distinct groups—the bullion dealers, the manufacturers, the exporters and the auctioneers—apart from the retailers, and, while appreciating the difficulty of adequate representation on such a small Council, I would ask my noble friend on the Front Bench to implement the assurance that he has given, by seeing that these various interests can be reasonably sure of being represented in the four places allotted to them on the Council, as proposed in the Amendment which I support.

VISCOUNT AMORY

My noble friend Lord Drumalbyn was wise not to give too impetuous a reply to this very difficult question of the selection of the representatives. I remember once, when I was a Minister, very glibly answering a question about whether there would be four representatives. I said that of course one would be a Scot, one would be a Welshman, one would be a trade unionist and one would be a woman, and I had a little insufficient room for the wider representation that was required.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS

Amendments Nos. 50, 52 and 53 are all linked and consequential upon No. 49. I do not want to make a long speech, particularly as time is getting on and business is awaiting discussion. The first Amendment, under which the Secretary of State will not now be appointing all the members of the Council, paves the way for the further Amendments. I beg to move.

Amendments moved— Page 28, line 13, leave out ("by the Secretary of State"). Page 28, line 34, leave out ("or elected").—(Lord Sandys.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD SANDYS

Amendment No. 53 is consequential on the earlier Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 28, line 39, leave out from beginning to end of line 46 and insert— ("9.—(1) The Council shall elect a person to serve as chairman from among the members of the Council and notice of his election shall, as soon as is reasonably practicable, be given in writing to the Secretary of State by the the secretary or other person for the time being authorised by the Council in that behalf.").—(Lord Sandys.)

LORD DRUMALBYN

This Amendment is intended to give the Council greater autonomy in its selection of a chairman, and instead of the appointment of a chairman needing to be approved by the Secretary of State, the appointment merely needs to be notified to the Secretary of State. I hope that this Amendment will commend itself to the Committee.

LORD SANDYS

Once again, on this important matter my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn has shown both the diplomacy and tact with which we always associate him. It is a matter of very great importance that a newly appointed Council should have discretion in this area of appointing its own chairman, and I am quite certain that the decision taken by Her Majesty's Government is the right one.

BARONESS PHILLIPS

An excellent practice which we hope we shall see creeping in to other boards—very democratic.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS

Amendment No. 54 is purely drafting, linked with Amendment No. 56. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 29, line 4, at end insert— ("(3) If any member appointed by an assay office is elected as chairman of the Council, paragraph 8(2) of this Schedule shall have effect as if that member had ceased to hold office otherwise than by retirement.").—(Lord Sandys.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS

This is a purely drafting Amendment. I beg to move. Page 29, line 32, after ("determine") insert ("; and any such committee shall be").—(Lord Sandys.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS

This is again a purely drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 30, line 17, leave out ("shown") and insert ("ascertained.").—(Lord Sandys.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 13 [Power to alter, etc. constitution of Council]:

LORD SANDYS

This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 19. after ("omissions to") insert ("or from").—(Lord Sandys.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 14 [Functions of assay offices, etc.]:

LORD SANDYS

This is self-evident, being purely a drafting matter. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 32, leave out ("in this Act contained") and insert ("contained in this Act").—(Lord Sandys.)

VISCOUNT AMORY

May I ask the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, whether the grammar is thoroughly satisfactory in the Amendment as now proposed?

BARONESS PHILLIPS

I would rather that the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, was the expert on this. Frankly, I should have thought that the phrase we are changing to is not good, but then equally I do not like the word "ascertain", so obviously the Parliamentary draftsmen have their own standards.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 15 agreed to.

Schedule 4 [Powers and duties of assay offices]:

LORD SANDYS

Amendment No. 59 is once again a drafting Amendment, and it is there so that the wording accords with Clause 7, subsection (4) in the last two lines on page 9 of the Bill. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 31 line 27, leave out from ("the" to end of line 30, and insert ("assay office (but not any other person) shall be liable in damages to any person interested in the article").—(Lord Sandys.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS

Here again there are four Amendments linked together which are purely drafting, Amendments Nos. 60, 61, 62 and 63. I beg to move Amendment No. 60.

Amendment moved— Page 31 line 33, leave out ("gold, silver or platinum") and insert ("precious metal".—(Lord Sandys.)

BARONESS PHILLIPS

Is there another precious metal other than gold, silver or platinum?

LORD DRUMALBYN

There are other metals like palladium or rhodium, but they are not designated for hallmarking purposes. But this Amendment goes a little further than drafting because it would be possible to designate another metal for these purposes.

LORD SANDYS

One of the conveniences of this Bill is that we shall not be locked into its provisions for 150 years before there is further Parliamentary time. We have certainly used plenty of it this afternoon. By Order the Minister can expand the extent of the Bill, and I think the noble Baroness will obtain some satisfaction from that.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS

I beg to move Amendment No. 61.

Amendment moved— Page 32, line 6, leave out ("minimum")—(Lord Sandys.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS

I beg to move Amendment No. 62.

Amendment moved— Page 32, line 22, leave out ("gold, silver or platinum") and insert ("precious metal"). —(Lord Sandys.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS moved Amendment No. 63: Page 32, line 29, leave out ("for its services to that office") and insert ("in respect of the performance of their functions under this paragraph.").

The noble Lord said: This is a little beyond a drafting Amendment—and I accept the strictures of my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 4, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 15 agreed to.

Schedule 5 [Procedure for orders]:

LORD SANDYS moved Amendment No. 64: Page 34, line 48, leave out ("from the beginning of paragraph 2 to the words") and insert ("in paragraph 2 before").

The noble Lord said: Amendments Nos. 64, 65 and 66 are all purely drafting Amendments. I beg to move No. 64.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS

I beg to move Amendment No. 65.

Amendment moved— Page 35, line 4, leave out ("shall").—(Lord Sandys.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS

I beg to move Amendment No. 66.

Amendment moved— Page 35, line 5, after ("(1)") insert ("shall").—(Lord Sandys.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS moved Amendment No. 67: Page 35, line 11, leave out ("Paragraph 3") and insert ("Paragraphs 3 and 9").

The noble Lord said: Amendment No. 67 is to correct a drafting omission in not integrating paragraph 9 to the situation under Part II where the Secretary of State is proposing to make an order of his own Motion. However, in addition the Amendment excludes the right of the Secretary of State under paragraph 9 to claim costs from the assay office concerned where the Secretary of State himself takes the initiative in making an order. This seems to be only just to the assay office and has been agreed with the Department of Trade and Industry. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 16 [Application of Act to other precious metals by Order]:

LORD SANDYS moved Amendment No. 68: Page 15, line 27, leave out ("precious").

The noble Lord said: With due respect to those lawyers present I should like to say that this Amendment is a real lawyers' Amendment. It is concerned with tautology, and although it is a drafting Amendment the expression "precious metal" is defined in line 22, on page 19 of the Bill, and includes "any metal prescribed under this clause" Therefore, reference to "precious" metal is tautologous. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 17 and 18 agreed to.

Clause 19 [Local inquiries]:

5.40 p.m.

LORD SANDYS moved Amendment No. 69: Page 16, line 33, leave out from ("section") to ("evidence") in line 34 and insert ("250 of the Local Government Act 1972").

The noble Lord said: This is another drafting Amendment. It substitutes reference to the provisions of the Local Government Act 1972 for reference to the Local Government Act 1933, which of course will shortly cease to be operative. This is only common sense and takes the current legislative situation into account. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 20 [Regulations and orders]:

LORD SANDYS moved Amendment No. 70: Page 17, line 22, leave out ("15") and insert ("16").

The noble Lord said: This Amendment corrects the reference to Section 15, which by an oversight was not altered in an earlier version of the Bill, so as to make it refer to Clause 16, which deals with the application of the Act to other precious metals by order. It will be recalled that that clause requires an Affirmative Resolution by each House of Parliament. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 20, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 21 [Interpretation]:

LORD SANDYS moved Amendment No. 71: Page 18, line 25, leave out from beginning to end of line 29.

The noble Lord said: This is a drafting Amendment, and concerns the definition of the word "die". Since we have already altered Clause 6 in this regard and have set out the definition in that clause, it is thought unnecessary to set it out again in the interpretation clause. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS moved Amendment No. 72: Page 18, line 39, after ("(2)") insert ("of paragraph 2").

The noble Lord said: Amendments Nos. 72, 73, 74 and 75 are all purely drafting Amendments. I beg to move No. 72.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS

I beg to move Amendment No. 73.

Amendment moved—

Page 19, line 38, at end insert— (""unhallmarked" has the meaning given by section 2(4) of this Act").—(Lord Sandys.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS

I beg to move Amendment No. 74.

Amendment moved— Page 19, line 40, leave out ("which is") and insert ("who are").—(Lord Sandys.)

BARONESS PHILLIPS

I have one small point—I must say "bloody but unbowed". I notice that the Bill, when it refers to the Hallmarking Council, says "which shall be", but when it comes to the assay office it is to say "who are". You either take the Government as a corporate body or you take it as a set of individuals; but obviously there is something different about this Bill. However, I will not detain your Lordships.

VISCOUNT AMORY

Relevant to the point which has just been raised by the noble Baroness. Lady Phillips, I think that just now we changed the Mint from "it" to "they", which seemed to me a rather strange alteration.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS

Amendment No. 75, as I said, is drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 19, line 41, leave out ("which carries") and insert ("who carry").—(Lord Sandys.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

On Question, Whether Clause 21, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?

VISCOUNT AMORY

Before we proudly adopt Clause 21, may I refer to one of the interpretations that we discussed just now—that of a "precious metal"? It there seems to give power to the Miinster, by order, to apply hallmarking to any metal, such as iron, copper, steel or anything else. I wondered why there is such a wide power. One imagines that a Minister would in fact confine himself to precious metals, but why is such a wide power as this given?

LORD DRUMALBYN

It would at least need the Affirmative Resolution of the House, and I doubt whether the House would be prepared to designate iron or steel as precious metal, even though there is a temporary scarcity.

VISCOUNT AMORY

But Ministers do very strange things occasionally, and I should think a waste of time might result if a Minister went off his head and tried to apply a hallmarking to other than a precious metal. I suppose we have to rely on Ministers' in fact not going off their heads.

Clause 21, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 22 [Repeals]:

On Question, Whether Clause 22 shall stand part of the Bill?

LORD SANDYS

Before we pass Clause 22, which deals with the very considerable amount of repealing which is undertaken under Schedule 6, I should like to express the gratitude of those concerned in the assay offices to our legal advisers, who have dug up and researched a vast area of Statute Law of the United Kingdom. I think this expression is the very smallest that can be extended to them, because no fewer than 32 Acts of Parliament are concerned.

Clause 22 agreed to.

Clause 23 [Short title, commencement and extent]:

LORD SANDYS moved Amendment No. 76: Page 20, line 11, at end insert ("and, so far as it relates to matters with respect to which the Parliament of Northern Ireland has powers to make laws, shall be deemed for the purposes of section 6 of the Government of Ireland Act 1920 to have been passed before the day appointed for the purposes of that section.").

The noble Lord said: This Amendment concerns the Short Title, commencement and extent of the Bill. As this refers to the Parliament of Northern Ireland and very shortly the new Assembly is to be set out in and appointed under a Bill which I understand is published today, we cannot foresee the future of this particular Bill or future contingencies, and therefore we refer in this Amendment to the Government of Ireland Act 1920. I think it is self-explanatory, but I wanted to make this point in passing reference. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 23, as amended, agreed to.

Schedule 6 [Enactments repealed]:

5.50 p.m.

LORD SANDYS moved Amendment No. 77: Page 36, line 17, at end insert—

("15 Geo. 2. c.20. The Gold and Silver Thread Act 1741. The whole Act.")

The noble Lord said: In leading into Schedule 6 I have already referred to an area of repeal, and three of the remaining Amendments—Nos. 77, 78 and 81—are linked, each of them concerning gold and silver thread, in a series of Acts passed during the 18th century. They are an area of historic interest, but beyond that I think it is quite clear that the Acts should be repealed, and this will enable Schedule 6 to form a more substantial part of the Bill. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS moved Amendment No. 78: Page 36, line 19, at end insert—

(" 28 Geo. 3. c.7. The Gold and Silver Thread Act 1788. The whole Act.")

The noble Lord said: This Amendment is linked with Nos. 77 and 81. Each concerns the Gold and Silver Thread Act. I beg to move.

LORD STRANGE

I should like to put a question on this Amendment. Do the precious metals recognised in the Bill come into this?—because there can be platinum threads and other threads, and it is possible that these threads, as well as gold and silver threads, will be used in uniforms. How does the repeal of this Act affect the use of these other precious metals?

LORD SANDYS

The noble Lord, Lord Strange, has introduced an interesting point. I expect he is aware that platinum is more than twice as valuable as gold, as a substance; therefore I think it is beyond possibility that it would be felt desirable to introduce the use of this metal for costume jewellery and the like. Nevertheless I am afraid that I am not prepared to comment on this particular aspect. I am assured that these three Amendments relating to the Gold and Silver Thread Acts 1741, 1788 and the Gold and Silver Thread Act (Ireland) 1761 should all be repealed if this Bill is to carry with it the authority that it should in an area which is rather unusual.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS

Amendments 79, 80, 82, 83 and 84 are all linked. I beg to move No. 79.

Amendment moved— Page 37, line 6, column 3, after ("c. 26") insert ("15 Geo. 2. c. 20.").—(Lord Sandys.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS

I beg to move Amendment No. 80.

Amendment moved— Page 37, line 7, column 3, after ("c. 52") insert ("28 Geo. 3. c. 7.").—(Lord Sandys.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS

I beg to move Amendment No. 81.

Amendment moved— Page 37, line 12, at end insert—

(" 1 Geo. 3. c.9.(Ir.). The Gold and Silver Thread Act (Ire-land)1761. The whole Act.")

—(Lord Sandys.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS

I beg to move Amendment No. 82.

Amendment moved— Page 37, line 32, column 1, leave out ("Geo. 5. c. xi.") and insert ("8 & 9 Geo 5. c. lxi.").—(Lord Sandy's.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS moved Amendment No. 83. Page 37, line 35, column 1, leave out ("6") and insert ("16").

The noble Lord said: Amendments Nos. 83 and 84 are the last two Amendments on the Marshalled List. Both are drafting. In moving them I would express our gratitude to your Lordships for bearing with us over the long list of Amendments to the Bill. I can assure your Lordships that the later stage of the Bill, in about a week's time, will not contain quite so many Amendments. I beg to move Amendment No. 83.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SANDYS

I beg to move Amendment No. 84.

Amendment moved— Page 37, line 36, column 2, leave out ("Confirmation Order") and insert ("Order Confirmation").—(Lord Sandys.)

VISCOUNT AMORY

I should like to thank my noble friend for the extremely lucid and succinct explanation given to us of these two final Amendments and to express our gratitude for all the valuable advice given to the Committee throughout our discussions this afternoon.

LORD DRUMALBYN

I would congratulate my noble friend on getting through 84 Amendments so quickly.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 6, as amended, agreed to.

House resumed: Bill reported, with the Amendments.