§ LORD GLADWYNMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the recent record absence of rain and of the alarming possibility of a major drought during the next few years, they are giving urgent priority to the study of schemes for water rationing and for the establishment on the coasts of plants for the desalination of sea-water.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, although the last two winters have been drier than average and the last ten months have been the driest July/April period since 1854–55, it does not follow that we shall face a major drought in the next few years. Certainly there is no clear indication of any longterm trend towards drier weather. For the purpose of planning the development of water resources in England and Wales, the Water Resources Board have made forecasts for likely growth in demand to the end of the century. On present information it is clear that demand within that period can be met by conserving rainfall. In their report, Desalination 1972, they concluded that desalination is unlikely to make any substantial contribution to water resources in England and Wales during that period.
§ LORD GLADWYNMy Lords, although I am not particularly relieved by that reply, may I ask the noble Lord whether it is not a fact that in the 18th century and again in the Middle Ages there were three consecutive years of considerable drought during which the Thames ran dry? Is it not quite conceivable 594 that this could happen again? May I further ask the noble Lord whether it is not also a fact that all over the Northern Hemisphere now we seem to be entering a period of lack of rainfall of very considerable proportions, which seems to counteract to some extent the otimistic statement given just now by the noble Lord?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, what happened in the halcyon days of Liberal Governments in the late 19th century I do not know, but I do not think there is much likelihood of the Thames running dry at the moment. It really is true that rainfall is not becoming less.
§ Lord SHACKLETONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that according to the studies on the Pleistocene era, made by Professor Simpson for the Meteorological Office, it is likely that by the year 237000 A.D. there will be no snow and a great shortage of water on land?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I must confess that I was not aware of that; but it is perfectly possible for us to conserve more rainwater if we invest much more money.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, I should like to ask the Minister whether he is aware that although the Liberal Party is a very old Party we were not the Government in the Middle Ages?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I thought I had said "in the late 19th century".
§ Lord FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the scientists or the economists feel that desalination is still out of the way expensive, or is it near to a practical proposition?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I think the cost is slightly more than double that of conserving normal rainwater.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to bear in mind that some of the calculations of the cost of desalination ignore the possibility of associating desalination plants with power plants and using their heat? Would the noble Lord make sure that Government Departments co-ordinate, so 595 that these two matters can be looked at together in the future?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, these studies are going on. What my noble friend says is perfectly correct, but the fact still remains that the process will double the cost.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that at the moment there are tremendous auxiliary water supplies in this country, if they were tapped? Many statements are made regarding lack of rainfall in this country. is the Minister aware that there are adequate auxiliary supplies connected with derelict mines? During the last war they were brought into use to keep the munition factories going, so what is to stop their being brought into operation again?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Slater. That is exactly the sort of subject which the Water Resources Board does consider.
§ LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that his statement about the cost of desalination is broadly correct, according to all the scientific work which is being done at present; the cost is about three times the cost of the natural conservation of water? Is he also aware that the probability is that we in this country shall not find it economic to use desalination as a process for producing water for drinking, except in rare cases of peak loads and by the coast? Apart from that, it will be far too expensive.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend Lord Nugent. We are continuing experiments in connection with some of these big atomic plants. We have not closed our eyes and minds to the possibility for the future, but at the moment desalination is not comparable, as the noble Lord has said.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that British exports of desalination equipment are very substantial, and statements regarding cost must depend upon the relationship of the cost of the land for storage purposes? In some places it is expensive; in other places, like Kuwait, it is very cheap.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I agree with the point about plant for desalination. Certain countries do not have rainfall that they can conserve; we have.
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, in considering the relative costs, have the Government taken into consideration the costs in loss of amenities and agricultural land? Much of the flooding of vast areas of the country for reservoirs could be avoided by desalination.
LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON My Lords, the corollary of that isDo you like large petro-chemical plants on your coast line?
LORD NUNBURNHOLMEMy Lords, is it not with installing desalination plants? We may not have to use them, but it would be useful to have them for conversion of sea water in times of national water shortage. What are the Government's views about creating a water grid over the whole of the country?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, that question is really rather wide of the matter we are discussing. If the noble Lord likes to put down a Question we will answer it.