§ 3.19 p.m.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government the reason for the attendance of the Chief of the General Staff at a meeting to be held at Bonn on March 29 of FINABL, composed of representatives of the Army Chiefs of Staff of France, Italy, Netherlands, Germany, Belgium and Luxembourg; and whether this is the first occasion at which the United Kingdom has been represented at FINABL and whether such representation has now become permanent.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)My Lords, as my right honourable and noble friend stated in Chapter 1 of the 1973 Statement on the Defence Estimates, FINABL is a multilateral organisation in which Army Chiefs of Staff of the countries mentioned by the noble Lord and the United Kingdom meet, to discuss possibilities for harmonising tactics, logistics and training. They also discuss equipment requirements. The Chief of the General Staff is attending the meeting to-day as a permanent member for the first time.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, would the noble Baroness be kind enough to answer my Question? I asked her whether this is the first occasion on which the Chief of Staff has attended and whether that representation has now become permanent? In the light of her reply may I ask one further question? Is it not a fact that this organisation, FINABL, was established in 1953 as a Common Market committee dealing with defence—and how comes it that the Chief of the General Staff attends a meeting of this kind without any announcement of any kind?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I thought I had read the first reply fairly clearly, but 1193 I will repeat it, as the noble Lord has asked me. I did say that the Chief of the General Staff is attending the meeting to-day as a permanent member for the first time. On the other question, it is not a Common Market organisation; this FINABL organisation was in being before the Common Market, and we have always been eligible to join it. We have had links with it for a very long time—since 1956.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, will the noble Baroness inform your Lordships' House what is the precise relationship between this organisation and the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, and what is the special significance of France's belonging to this organisation, which presumably is of a defensive and military character and yet does not belong to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, FINABL is an organisation entirely concerned with Army matters. The NATO organisation, which I know the noble Lord knows well, is a much larger organisation covering all Service matters. France is a member of FINABL, but not an active member of NATO.
§ LORD BROWNMy Lords, the noble Baroness said that the General was attending this meeting for the first time to-day as a permanent representative. Has he attended it as a non-permanent representative before to-day?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIENo, my Lords.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, this is a new acronym that we have to learn. Can the noble Baroness say whether reports will be available to this House of the visits of Chiefs of Staff and others to FINABL?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I understand that the Chiefs of Staff will attend once a year, and that, as this is an advisory organisation, the results of any advice given will, of course, go to NATO.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, could the noble Baroness give an assurance that at this organisation's meetings no discussion of nuclear matters will arise?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, it is possible that they might be discussed in a broad sense, but not in a particular sense.
§ THE EARL OF ONSLOWMy Lords, as FINABL is now permanent, will the United Kingdom be included in the initials, and if so, where?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I understand that this is a question of intense discussion, and of course any contributions will be gratefully received.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, would the noble Baroness be good enough to tell the House when we made application to join FINABL?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, we made application in January of last year, and we joined in March of last year.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, can the noble Baroness explain to Members of your Lordships' House what is the military character and quality of this organisation, about which we have heard very little, and what is the contribution that Luxembourg is going to provide in order to make this a worthwhile military organisation?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am sure that Luxembourg will make a great contribution in wisdom and experience and advice. The noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, asks me what FINABL does. It provides a forum for consultation and cooperation on army equipment, it helps standardisation, and provides for regular interchange of information on tactics, logistics and training.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that all the atomic tactical weapons in Europe are provided by the United States? If now this Committee is to discuss atomic matters, what is the purpose of having a meeting in which the United States is not represented?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, as my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence has said, this matter has been discussed between ourselves and the 1195 French, and both have announced publicly on several occasions that the problem of Anglo-French nuclear collaboration is one for the future.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the French atomic tactical weapon is the M.2, 16 of which are situated on the Central Massif in France, and that the only major target they can reach is London?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I was not aware of that, but I am interested to hear it.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, can the noble Baroness say what is the cost of this organisation and what is our contribution to it?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, we contribute £1,000 a year.