§ 2.38 p.m.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether reports in the Press are correct that Zambia, a land-locked country, which since Independence has received from the United Kingdom £75 million in grants, subventions and credits, is now to be granted further subvention.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)My Lords, we have been in touch with the Zambian Government about their current development needs. They have accepted an offer of £1 million interest free loan for British road transport equipment.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister why it should be necessary to give this additional sum of the taxpayers' money on top of the very large sums already granted, since it appears to be a question of choice, not of necessity, that new routes are used when the historical route is still open to the Zambians? Also, why, since use of these earlier routes is still open, are they not being used? Further, has her attention been drawn to the map of Zambia indicating the several points where terrorists are being trained; and—this seems in collaboration with Tanzania—in the encouragement of a massive inflow into Central Africa of Chinese Communist soldiers disguised as workmen?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, in answer to the first supplementary question, we quite understand that the Zambian Government does not wish itself to be dependent upon the possible re-closure of the border with Rhodesia. On the second question, we have always said that we condone the action by terrorists of achieving their aims, their political aims—
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, did I say 726 "condone"? I apologise to your Lordships. I meant, of course "condemn" which does have rather a different sense.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, can the noble Baroness say whether or not it is rather unfortunate that this vendetta should be pursued against Zambia which, after all, is only carrying out the mandate of the United Nations, as agreed to with the United Kingdom?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I do not know whether this question was addressed through me to my noble friend, but the fact is that we voted for an economic resolution in the Security Council.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, in this matter of interest-free loans, is it not true that several other countries have been privileged to obtain loans of this character? Is it possible for the noble Baroness now, or perhaps at a later stage, or in writing, to convey information to Members of your Lordships' House, and in particular to me, as I ask the question, how many of the countries which have obtained this privilege of interest-free loans have failed even to return the capital?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR or BELHELVIEMy Lords, if the noble Lord would care to put down a Written Question, I will certainly reply in detail.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that we are grateful to her for the way in which she answered the Question about Zambia? Is she further aware that the map which her noble friend displayed was not of Zambia, but of Tanzania?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her remarks, but perhaps she was in a better position to see the map than I was.
THE EARL OF SELKIRKMy Lords, is my noble friend satisfied that the Zambian Government are really seeking to restrain troops, whether regular or irregular, from mining roads in the area? Is she aware that recently, due to an explosion, six Africans were killed and four others had both their legs blown off?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, it is my understanding that the Zambian Government 727 are doing their best in very difficult conditions on what I am sure my noble friend will recognise is a very long border.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether it is not true that interest-free loans from our ex-colonial possessions are a very rare occurrence indeed?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I think the noble Baroness meant "to our excolonial possessions" instead of "from our ex-colonial possessions". I would not say that they were rare.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, since I failed to catch my noble friend's words in reply to the question put by the noble Lord. Lord Shinwell, may I ask whether it is to be understood that she said she thought interest-free loans were preferable to gifts? Surely that is bad business, and it would be better to make an outright gift?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am fascinated to hear what I might have said, but I am afraid I did not say it. What I said was that if the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, would care to put down a Written Question, I would answer him in detail.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, if I were to put down a Question, is it not likely that I should receive an Answer similar to the one that the noble Baroness has given me?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I cannot believe that the noble Lord would not put down a Question if he had a chance.