§ 2.50 p.m.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will consider the desirability of requiring all oil burning and oil carrying ships to install centrifuge processing machinery in order to avoid the dumping of oil sludge at sea.
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN)My Lords, I assume that the noble Lord has in mind oil/water separators using centrifugal methods. Non-tankers are already required to carry separators where they use their bunker tanks for ballast but neither centrifuge nor other separators at present have sufficient capacity for use in tankers. It is, however, the responsibility of shipowners to ensure that whatever equipment is necessary is fitted and that their ships comply with the stringent regulations governing the discharge of Oil.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, in view of the fact that, on the admission of the Minister, this is a perfectly feasible process for dealing with waste oil, why cannot it be insisted on for larger vessels as well as smaller ones? Is the reason for not insisting on it that it would cost more, or is it because of size? It seems to me perfectly obvious that centrifuges, without being too large at all, could quite easily do this work, with much saving to the environment.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I am advised that the capacity of the centrifuges at present available is not sufficient for tankers. As to the last few words in the noble Lord's supplementary question, we have to rely more on enforcement than on separation. By itself, separation is not enough to get over this difficulty.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, is it not a fact that in the separation process the water is taken off the solids and that the solids when separated represent a relatively small amount of the total and may be more readily disposed of, whereas at the present time the solids form part of the sludge which is so detrimental to the environment?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Pargiter, says that the solids may be more readily disposed of. But, of course, the regulations would 599 have to be complied with and I think that the regulations allow the disposal of only so much—I think it is 60 litres per nautical mile at present. To dispose of them all in one lump would offend against the regulations.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, is it not a fact that they need not be disposed of in one lump? Is not the answer that the solids would be a sufficient mass to sink, whereas the oil, with which they are mixed at the present time, floats?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I should like to look into that. I am grateful to the noble Lord for his comment.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, in view of the distressing consequences which are worldwide in the seas and oceans can the noble Lord tell the House whether the Government are spending money on research, or are encouraging research into this problem of oil pollution?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I do not think the question is one of research. It is a question of complying with the regulations; and in the nature of the case it is difficult to enforce the regulations, chiefly because offences are committed at night.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the shipowners, those responsible for tankers, would be only too anxious to provide what is necessary in accordance with my noble friend's suggestion if the expense could be met? Is he aware of the expense that would be involved in providing these additions aboard ship, and is it not possible for the Government to render some financial aid? Is he aware that what they would gain by preventing the spoliation of our foreshores would offset the additional cost?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, when an offence is committed within territorial waters our jurisdiction extends to all vessels, but with regard to offences committed outside territorial waters our jurisdiction extends only to United Kingdom vessels.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that if means of separation were enforceable 600 there would not be this question of disposing of waste oil at night; and that the answer is that it would be solid matter which would be readily disposed of, so that no one would commit an offence or need to commit one?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I am not certain to what extent the sludge could be reduced to solids. This is one of the things I should like to look into. My advice at present is that sludge is often mixed by the load on top.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he would see to it that research takes place into this matter so that we may be informed whether what I suggest is possible or not?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, this matter is to be examined in the course of the next meeting of the International Convention for the Prevention of Pollution of the Sea by Oil which was responsible for the original Convention in 1954 and the Amendment in 1958.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that he has now given the House a great deal of satisfaction, and that it would have helped greatly if earlier on he had added that additional information to the knowledge of this House? It is not a secret society!
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I apologise if I did not bring it in sooner, but it did not seem to me that it was an answer to the Question that I was being asked.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, we had to squeeze it out of the noble Lord.