§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many civil servants who have retired in the past five years with the rank of Under-Secretary or above have since been employed as consultants or directors of companies operating in the fields with which they were concerned during their public service.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)My Lords, since permission to take such employment is not in all cases required, the exact number is not known. Of those cases where, because of the contractual or other special relationship between the company and the Government, departmental consent is necessary, only certain categories have to be referred to the Civil Service Department by the Departments concerned. There have been some forty such cases referred to my Department in the last five years.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for his Answer, and not wishing to make any slur on anybody's integrity for which indeed I have not a shred of evidence, I should like to ask the Minister whether he does not think the time is ripe, in view of the considerable number of cases that have come to notice, for some reconsideration of the regulations governing this practice, so that not only may integrity be protected but, certainly equally important, integrity may be seen to be protected?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I recognise that there is some disquiet about this matter. I also feel, and I think your Lordships will agree, that we are probably lucky enough to have the least corrupt public service in the world. That reputation has been richly deserved, and I think it is incumbent upon all of us to do everything we can to protect it. If there is disquiet in this area, as disclosed by the noble Baroness's Question, I shall certainly be glad to have a look at what may be done to allay it, without, as it were, making any commitment in this area.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, could the noble Earl say how many out of that number had retired prematurely, in advance of their normal age of retirement?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I am afraid I cannot without notice. One of the problems here is that there is a different age for retirement in the public service and the Government service and in the private sector. This, of course, means that there is a considerable advantage to firms; and there is, I think, public advantage in public servants working in the private sector for some years after their retirement from public service.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, would the noble Earl agree that some of the most difficult decisions that Ministers have to take are in this particular area? And would he also agree that the further inquiry he may set in hand is very necessary, because of the extent to which concern has arisen over a particular case, in regard to which my noble friend made no allegations of any kind at all? Would he therefore look into—but not until he has had time to consider it—the possibility of a restatement of the principles that apply in such cases?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I am grateful for the line which the noble Lord, the Leader of the Opposition, has taken in his supplementary question. As I have said, I shall be very glad to look into this matter, and if need be to communicate with noble Lords, and, if necessary, reply to a further Question on it.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, I understood the noble Lord to say that forty applications had been made in the 423 last five years. Would the noble Earl be able to say how many of those were approved or otherwise?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, there have been that number referred. I should again like notice in order to say what numbers have been approved or not, as the case may be.
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the time has come to look into the matter of retiring age? In almost all walks of life the retirement age has been lifted, in Oxford and Cambridge, for instance, from 60 to 67. Perhaps the noble Earl will agree that this is one of the problems that has to be tackled before we can tackle the other part of the question. Obviously these able men ought not to be put into purdah. With the relationship between State and Private sector becoming more and more intimate, a new approach is needed.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, it is my impression that, not for the first time, Oxford is moving in a rather contrary direction to the rest of the world.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, would it not be true to say that the general trend to-day, in industry and elsewhere, is towards lower retirement age rather than a higher one?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, as a former denizen of another university, that was my impression, I must admit.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, could the noble Earl inform himself a little further about the retiring age in universities generally?
§ LORD BALOGHEspecially in Cambridge.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, as I have told noble Lords, I shall be glad to look into this question, both generally and particularly.
LORD HAWKEMy Lords, will my noble friend keep in mind that almost the only posts for which people in the Foreign Service, who are cast off in the prime of life, are really suited are with companies trading with countries to which they have been on post?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, having cast myself off from the Foreign Service 424 before the prime of life, I shall of course take due note of the observations of my noble friend.