§ 4.3 p.m.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE)My Lords, I apologise for interrupting this debate, but it might be a convenient moment for me to answer the Private Notice Question of the noble Baroness, Lady Serota, who ask the Government:
Whether, in view of the demand of the British Medical Association for a full inquiry into the pay and structure of the ancillary hospital staff and the concurrence of the National Union of Public Employees in this demand, they will agree to the setting up of such an inquiry?If I may reply in the words of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services, he has replied:I have said several times that it is open to the trade unions concerned to put their case to the Pay Board, and I very much hope they will agree to do so.
§ BARONESS SEROTAMy Lords, first I must thank the noble Lord for repeating the reply that was made by his right honourable friend in another place. The noble Lord will not be surprised to hear that I find it extremely disappointing, and I have no doubt that the B.M.A. and the unions concerned will also find it bitterly disappointing at this moment of time when all of us concerned with the 444 future wellbeing of the Health Service would wish to see the Government taking more positive action. Surely the noble Lord will agree that the Government—and the Secretary of State in particular—have a personal and direct responsibility in this matter, and that they must take action to end the present deadlock, which has arisen, I would submit, as a result of their very rigid policies.
As to the noble Lord's right honourable friend's reply that the unions should go to the Pay Board, would I be right in thinking that even if they were to do this once the Board is set up, the Board could only make recommendations; that the recommendations would only be advisory; and that even if they were accepted in due course by the Government, the hospital workers could not receive an increase until next December? If that were to be so, would the noble Lord also confirm that this would mean that they would not have had an increase for some two years, and certainly not since the Report that his own Department received from the Department of Employment, and this because they were caught by a mere few days by the Government's freeze last November? Could he also confirm with regard to the offer of £2 that has been made, and which the Secretary of State has urged the staff to accept, that this applies only to one-third of the workers, because two-thirds of the workers in the hospital ancillary services are female, and they have been offered only £1.80?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, the fact of the matter is, as my right honourable friend has made clear, that there can be no revision of the Stage 2 terms of £1 plus 4 per cent., which must apply to everyone. On the other hand, although the Pay Board is not yet formally set up—it will not formally exist until April 1—the chairman, deputy chairman and officers have been appointed and could start to consider very quickly evidence submitted to them about the pay of National Health Service ancillary staff.
So far as the two points put to me by the noble Baroness are concerned, her first point was that there would have been no increase for these workers for two years if they were not to get a further increase until December. But of course that is ignoring the fact that there is an 445 offer open to them at the moment. They could accept that offer with effect from this week, and we very much hope that they will do so. On her second point, it is true that the offer is £2 per week for men and £1.80 for women, but this represents the same percentage increase for both men and women.
§ LORD AMULREEMy Lords, I should like to support the noble Baroness in what she has said, because although I am not really in favour of the ad hoc inquiries making more and more special cases, it seems that if the result of the application to the Pay Board will not be effective until next December, it is rather a long time for these workers to wait, especially as they are not particularly well paid at the present time. I know that they have the offer of the £2 now. One hopes that, supposing some kind of gesture is made by way of getting them before the Pay Board quickly, or getting an independent inquiry set up, they might possibly be prepared to accept the offer and thereby bring to an end a difficult and uncomfortable situation.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I fully realise that difficulties occur when a freeze is operating. But there are many people who could claim exceptions, and it would be quite wrong to make one exception because it would lead to many others being claimed. I would only say that, although one fully recognises that these workers are among the lower paid, we hope that as a result of the recommendations of the Pay Board we shall be able to meet some of the difficulties of relativities and anomalies which inevitably occur when one has a freeze.
§ LORD AUCKLANDMy Lords, while accepting that any offer above the £2 must wait until Stage 3, may I ask whether my noble friend is aware that there is great concern in all parts of your Lordships' House, and in the country too, about the situation of these people? These are very dedicated people, and I should like to ask my noble friend whether he would make representations to his right honourable friend to make quite sure that when the Pay Board sets to work these people are given very high priority indeed. They have some difficult jobs to do—very often dirty jobs—and they work very long hours. As this is a matter of urgency, may I ask my noble friend whether he will make 446 these urgent representations to his right honourable friend?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I am grateful for what my noble friend has said. My right honourable friend is fully aware of the value of the work done by these staffs of the hospitals. Certainly it will be his earnest endeavour to see that they receive fair treatment.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, the noble Lord and the Government are afraid that if they accept any claim from any category of workers it will start a chain reaction. That is their argument, as I understand it. But I believe that the whole country regards this category of workers as unique, because everybody knows that throughout this century, because of their dedication—and the noble Lord mentioned that—these people, on moral grounds, have been reluctant to withdraw their labour. Withdrawal of labour is the only weapon that the worker has in the labour market. While other workers have been on strike—on strike to-day or on strike throughout the century—these people have never withdrawn their labour because they have felt vulnerable to criticism. That of course is not the only reason. They also have a high moral standard; and that is precisely why in the first place they were prepared to undertake work which many people are not prepared to do—work which is not very congenial and which is lowly paid. It is apparent to everyone that all employers of their labour are prepared to exploit them. I am asking the noble Lord not to treat these workers simply as another case and therefore to use the argument: "We must not make any exception". I am asking him to regard these workers as unique. My final word is on the fact that it was said that these women are—
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I hesitate to interrupt the noble Baroness, but this is a Private Notice Question.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask a further question?
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLI am grateful to the noble Earl. This is a very important matter and I hope that 447 the next time the noble Earl is ill—though I hope he will not be—he will appreciate the importance of the work done by these people. May I ask this: in view of the fact that these women have been offered £1.80 that they can have right away, does he not realise that sum will keep them in the position of the poorest paid in the whole country?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I am sorry not to be able to agree with the noble Baroness that one can regard any one category as being of exceptional hardship. We have the greatest sympathy—certainly all of us in this House and those who have anything to do with hospitals—with their case. But I cannot accept that it is unique. People can make equally good cases for other categories of workers. So far as the offer to the men and women is concerned, as I said before, the percentage offer is the same; and there is a further amount available to the women under the equal pay scheme later on this year, falling within the provisions of the counter-inflation policy. The fact of the matter is that these are among the lower paid workers. But the £1 plus 4 per cent. arrangements apply also to the higher paid workers; and to that extent they are fair to all.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this is typical of the high-handed attitude that the Government have adopted in the industrial relations field? Is he not aware that the Answer to the Question is both arrogant and inaccurate? It is not possible for the trade unions to put their case to the Pay Board. There is no Pay Board: it is not yet established. The Bill has not yet gone through Parliament—but yet it is stated in this cold-blooded and, as I say, arrogant way that they can put their case to the Pay Board. What is meant by that phrase if the Bill has not yet been passed? If the personnel of the projected Pay Board are there, why can they not invite the trade union officials to go and see them, and call this an inquiry and not a Pay Board investigation? If that were done and if the unions, on that basis, were prepared to recommend a return to work, would that not be a better way of dealing with the matter?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I rather resent the way in which the noble Lord has called the statement "arrogant and inaccurate" and I do not think that sort of speech is likely to help in what is a very difficult situation. All I would say is that we have done our best to advance the setting up of the Pay Board. As I said originally, the Pay Board will formally come into existence if and when the Bill passes through your Lordships' House, but already the chairman and the deputy chairman have been appointed, and the officers also. They could be starting to consider any evidence that was put to them.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I am not referring to the noble Lord himself; I am referring to the words in the Answer. There is no Pay Board as yet, but that is what is said. And if the situation is as the noble Lord himself has just explained, then why is not the Answer phrased in a more conciliatory way? Why are the trade unions not being invited to put their case before a body of people which might be called an inquiry, until such time as the Pay Board is established?
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, assuming that the Pay Board comes into existence within a reasonable time, could the noble Lord give us an assurance that in their consideration of any application coming from this group of workers due weight will be given to the article of the Pay Code which requires special attention to be given to the lower paid worker? Secondly, since the Pay Code is still only a Consultative Document and these difficulties really arise out of its extreme rigidity, would the Government consider revising the Code before it becomes fully operative, so as to give rather more room for manœuvre in cases such as the present one?
§ LORD ABERDARECertainly, my Lords, it is our intention, as has been said, to pay special attention to the lower paid worker, and certainly any inquiry by the Pay Board—if the noble Lord will allow me to refer to the Pay Board—would take account of the problems of other related groups of workers. On the second point made by the noble Baroness, we are dealing here with Phase 3 of the policy. Phase 2 is concerned with the rigid £1 plus 4 per cent. 449 In Phase 3 the Pay Board will be advising the Government in time for the formulation of the third stage of policy, which will begin in the autumn.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that my noble friend was not referring to Phase 3? She was quoting from the Green Paper, which relates to Phase 2.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, all I can say is that it is at Phase 3 that we shall examine the problems of relativities and anomalies. Phase 2 is the £1 plus 4 per cent.
§ BARONESS SEROTAMy Lords, this is the point I am raising. I stress the urgency of this matter. I do not think the British Medical Association would have gone on record and approached the Government in the way that they did, if they had not been deeply concerned about the conditions in the service. I asked the noble Lord at the outset (and I should like him to confirm this) whether it is not the case that even if the Pay Board, when it is established, investigates the case and makes recommendations, and the recommendations are then accepted, the increase cannot be made available at the earliest until the autumn, and probably not until December. There is that time lag. As to the suggestion that it is now open to the unions to accept the offer of £2 or £1.80, depending upon whether one is a male or a female worker, I can only suggest to the noble Lord that it will deny these people the benefits that many of them are getting from the other side of his Department as the lowest paid workers of all, because as their pay goes up £2 so they will sacrifice £2 of family income supplement benefits.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I must briefly reply to the last point of the question of the noble Baroness. The fact is that the family income supplement is paid for twelve months, so it would not automatically be sacrificed.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, could the noble Lord recognise that there is some flexibility, despite the accusations of rigidity? Could not these people be treated in the same flexible way as the Government treated the banks in permitting them to raise their dividends 450 well above the rate of dividends for last year?
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, that question does not seem to me to arise out of the particular answer that I gave the noble Baroness.
§ THE EARL OF ONSLOWMy Lords, would not my noble friend also agree that the lower paid workers in the form of National Health ancillary workers will be the greatest beneficiaries if the Government's counter-inflation policy succeeds.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. Of course they will, and indeed the whole nation will benefit.