§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what action is proposed on complaints about the effect of excessively heavy and long vehicles from Continental countries travelling through narrow streets.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, as I said last week, all Continental lorries entering this country must comply with United Kingdom regulations on maximum widths, lengths, and axle and gross weights. The proportion of offending vehicles has been reduced from 80 per cent. a year ago to 10 per cent. to 20 per cent. to-day, and enforcement staff are being increased.
The problem of large lorries using narrow streets concerns large lorries generally, not just Continental lorries. The Government fully share the view that large lorries should not be allowed into streets that are not suitable for them. Local authorities have powers to exclude long or heavy vehicles from narrow streets. where there are alternative routes. A circular has recently been issued to local authorities giving the guidance on the use of these powers, which will, of course, be strengthened by the Heavy 1021 Commercial Vehicles (Controls and Regulations) Bill which your Lorsdhips have recently considered.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that Answer, but would he not agree that it is not entirely satisfactory? In spite of what the Government have done and what local authorities are empowered to do, these lorries continue to come in. They use the narrow streets, they destroy our roads and they constitute an intolerable nuisance, particularly to people in the South, in Kent and Surrey and Sussex who have to use narrow streets. Why cannot the Government take their courage in both hands and declare a complete prohibition of this kind of juggernaut?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I was trying to convey to noble Lords that this problem of size is not unique to Continental or foreign lorries. They have to use the same maximum widths and lengths and weights as we do in this country; so it is a problem applying to all lorries in this country, the majority of which are our own. Restrictive practices against foreign lorries would result in restrictive practices against our lorries abroad. This is not a foreign or home problem; it is a problem universal to us and foreign countries.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, would the noble Lord appreciate that I am in no way condoning the hauliers who are responsible for those British lorries which are long and heavy and excessively loaded. I am asking whether the Government would prohibit completely the use of narrow streets by this kind of juggernaut, whether Continental or British, and have these streets by-passed in some fashion. Is it not just a matter of reorganisation of traffic? Why should our people be compelled to suffer?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I quite agree with the noble Lord that it is intolerable that these heavy lorries have to use unsuitable streets and roads in small towns and villages. We are creating some 3½ thousand miles of strategic network main roads which will stop the necessity for these big lorries to use small towns. So far as the ports are concerned, this main strategic access will be completed by 1976.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, in view of the fact that the noble Lord has said that it is intolerable that these large vehicles should use our small towns and the roads that go through them, could be say when the question of 40-ton vehicles is going to be considered by the Council of Ministers? And will he consult with the Leader of the House on whether this House will be given an opportunity of discussing this matter prior to a decision being taken at the Council of Ministers?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I take the noble Lord's point. As he knows, there is a meeting next week at which the weights will be discussed. It is the intention of my right honourable friend to insist, so far as he is able, that the 40-tons weight is not applicable in this country. As your Lordships know, 32 tons is the applicable weight here and the one which we are at this moment enforcing. We regard as even more important the 10-ton axle weight, and this is a matter to which we intend to stick very fast.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, in the light of what the noble Lord has said, and realising that this decision would require the unanimity of the Council of Ministers, will he give an assurance to his right honourable friend that both Houses of Parliament will fully support him in barring any question of vehicles of this size appearing on our roads in this country?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONYes, my Lords; but I should like, in fairness, in case I am being misunderstood, to say that the size of vehicles is not really in question here. What we are really concerned about is the axle weight. That is the nub of the matter.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, if the Minister says that the local authorities have power to order certain roads not to be used by these heavy vehicles, what power or what influence have the Government over local authorities? Because why should five, six or seven new cars on trailers be allowed up St. James's Street and down Piccadilly in the busy time of the day? Surely the Government's duty is to tell the G.L.C. to use their powers.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, as I think the noble Lord 1023 knows, the Secretary of State has reserve powers to do such things. It is not normally necessary to do it because local authorities are responsible bodies. I believe I am right in thinking that the G.L.C. have already announced that there is going to be a ban on such vehicles using the central part of London.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, well do it; because yesterday, in the middle of the traffic, there was an enormous lorry with a trailer with 7 new motor cars, ambling up St. James's Street and down Piccadilly, causing a very heavy blockage of traffic.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I hope that the noble Lord will be all the more grateful when the G.L.C. regulations come into force.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, in view of the noble Lords' Answer, is he not a little complacent when he speaks about length and concentrates on axle weight? While we all agree that axle weight is very important, any increase in the length of the vehicles, in addition to causing damage to the roads, inconveniences other people. I hope that the Minister will show a sterner approach from that he indicated in his reply a little earlier.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the permitted length at the moment, using our British measures, is 49 ft. 21½ ins. This is for an articulated lorry. This would give up to 50 ft. 10 ins., an increase of 1 ft. 7½ ins. We already allow lorries and trailers to be 59 ft. 0½ in. and we are still 10 ft. under that. An increase of 1 ft. 7 ins. is not as big as all that.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, does not the noble Lord realise that all the argument and all the explanations in the world will not rid us of what has become a scandal? While I appreciate the situation mentioned by my noble friend Lord Shepherd about referring this matter to the Council of Ministers, may I ask whether the noble Lord would agree that if that were done it might take months or years before a decision is reached, and even then the decision might be unsatisfactory? Why cannot the Government exercise a little independence on the matter? This has become a human problem. Is the noble Lord aware that unless 1024 something is done I shall seek to emulate my noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry, who asks Questions freely—and to that I raise no objection at all—by persisting in putting this Question as often as the Rules of Order permit until something definite is done?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, will continue to press us. We wish to be pressed on these matters because we want to get the answers right.
§ LORD SOMERSMy Lords, has the noble Lord ever driven behind one of these excessively long lorries? Does he not realise that it takes almost five minutes to overtake one of them, with extremely dangerous consequences to road safety?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I should have thought that if one were going to take five minutes to overtake a lorry it would be very dangerous to start overtaking it.
§ LORD MOYNEMy Lords, if I am not one too many, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will consider a series of compulsory lay-bys into which these large vehicles, any large vehicles, should have to pull? I do not expect him to give an immediate answer to that question.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I think that the answer is that these large lorries will use our 3½ thousand miles of strategic roadways when they are completed, and we must look forward to that day as soon as we can.
§ BARONESS STOCKSMy Lords, does not the noble Lord realise that it is not only a question of the length or the weight of the lorry when it comes to these articulated vehicles; it is the difficulty in turning corners? They have to back here and back there and create a general blockage until at last they can get round.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the noble Baroness reinforces my argument. When we have these 3½ thousand miles of strategic roadways they will not need to go into these small towns; they will be able to offload and the local delivery centres will be able to deliver into the centre.
§ LORD FEVERSHAMMy Lords, would not a more constructive policy towards freight-carrying on our inland waterways get some of these loads off the roads altogether?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the noble Lord has made a point which has been made by the noble Lord, Lord Popplewell, many times. It is one we are looking at at the moment, as he knows.
LORD DE CLIFFORDMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that the South-East of England is the worst affected area? Would he not consider that until such time as by-passes can be built round these small villages we might restrict the axle-weights of vehicles coming in through ports like Dover and Newhaven?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I thought I had made it clear that the axle weights are already restricted to our maximum weights. We have scales in these ports where incoming lorries are tested.
§ LORD MAYBRAY-KINGMy Lords, reverting to the supplementary question of the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, may I ask whether the noble Lord is aware that this interchange of questions and cross-questioning shows how necessary it is that before important decisions are made by the Council of Ministers, Parliament should have a more adequate method of expressing its opinions?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I think that we are completely aware of what Parliament's opinions are, and I do not believe that Parliament's opinions differ greatly from our own opinions.