§ 3.18 p.m.
LORD DE CLIFFORDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many heavy commercial vehicles entering this country since August 1, 818 1972, have been inspected at ports of entry, how many were found overloaded or contravening other regulations either at ports of entry or subsequently, and where contraventions were found after entry, how many prosecutions were initiated, and of these prosecutions how many have been brought into court.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, in the period August 1, 1972, to May 31 this year, approximately 6,000 foreign vehicles have been examined under the Road Traffic (Foreign Vehicles) Act, 1972, by D.O.E. examiners and Weights and Measures officials. 1,200 were found to be over-weight and of these 800 were forced to off-load immediately; 17 were mechanically defective; 58 had no permit or short-term operator's licence and 79 contravened the hours and records regulations. Two drivers ignored prohibitions issued to them, were arrested, prosecuted and fined. Separate figures for vehicles prohibited at inland checks are not available.
LORD DE CLIFFORDMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his reply, may I ask whether he has any indication as to whether the enormous number of vehicles which have been found to be overloaded and otherwise in poor condition come from the same companies, or do they come from different companies?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, with regard to the observation made by my noble friend that it is an enormous number, I would assure him that it has been reduced from 80 per cent. of the foreign vehicles entering found to be faulty a year ago, to something now between 10 and 20 per cent. That, I think, will give comfort to all noble Lords in this House. As to the question of whether they are coming from the same companies, I can say that basically we are taking note of that point. There was one company which had six or seven particularly had offences of overloading, and we complained to the French Government. The French Government have now said that no more permits will be issued allowing that company's vehicles to come to this country.
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, can the noble Lord tell us, if 6,000 is the 819 number of vehicles that have come in, and that all the vehicles that have come in have been examined by examiners at the port?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, no. Of the number of heavy vehicles entering this country, about 11,000 enter every month: of these, half are British and of the remaining half, half are trailers to be attached to British lorries, and therefore they become British. So of the total of foreign vehicles coming in, we examine about one in five.
§ VISCOUNT ADDISONMy Lords, would the noble Lord make it clear that that figure of between 15 and 20 per cent. non-compliance is not at all acceptable?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I said that we have reduced the number contravening our regulations from 80 per cent. to between 10 and 20 per cent. We are not happy with that figure. In this country, of our own vehicles we have something like 2 to 4 per cent. non-compliance, and it is our intention to reduce the figure for foreign vehicles to this percentage.
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, does the fact that such a small proportion of the vehicles coming in are being examined result from the fact that we have an insufficiency of examiners at the port?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Champion, not for the first time, has put his finger on an important point. Our men working at the ports have been fully stretched. By September we shall have 50 more inspectors/examiners available to the D.O.E.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that even that will not be satisfactory if, out of 6,000 vehicles inspected 1,200 were found to be overloaded? Would not the fact that this result is found on a spot check appear to show that there must be a very large number of vehicles coming into this country at the moment unchecked and grossly overladen?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONNo, my Lords. I think the point is that 820 we have reduced the number contraveening our regulations from 80 to between 20 and 20 per cent. That indicates that these spot checks are working; and, in any case, one in five is rather more than a spot check. We know what to look for and the firms likely to be at fault. The situation is improving all the time. There is no need to worry. The Act has not yet been in force for one year and the improvement is markedly to the good.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Lord may not be very worried, but many people who operate on the motorways and on the smaller country roads around Dover are greatly worried, particularly bearing in mind the very tragic accident last week.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I think that the noble Lord is overstepping his brief in that statement. There is no indication that that accident had anything to do with an overweight vehicle, and it is very wrong of the noble Lord to indicate that. We do not find that vehicles are coming in overweight in increasing numbers. We are reducing them, and we think that the number of inspectors will now be sufficient. There is no evidence that the accident to which the noble Lord referred had anything to do with overloading, which is what the law is about.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, can the noble Lord say quite truthfully that this exhibition of leniency has anything to do with our association with the Common Market?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, there is no question of leniency. We prohibit any overweight vehicle which does not unload on our instructions from entering. Prohibition is a very costly fine to operators abroad. We allow only a tolerance of around 2 cwt., and when one has a maximum limit of 32 tons laden weight that is not a great deal of leniency.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend if those figures are not somewhat misleading. Am I right in thinking that the vast majority of lorries that come in—that is, the remaining 75 per cent.—are British. Of the 25 per cent., those that are examined are obviously likely to be faulty—and 821 it is impossible to examine every lorry—therefore the figures mislead to some extent because many need not be examined.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I think I made it clear that of the vehicles coming into the country half are foreign—and we examine all vehicles coming in on our spot checks, whether British or foreign. The Question refers to foreign vehicles, and I merely pointed out that, of the half which came in as foreign, half of those were put on to British lorries and therefore from that moment came under the heading of British vehicles. But they are still spot checked.
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD WINDLESHAM)My Lords, I think that the noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, has spoken once or twice.
LORD DE CLIFFORDMy Lords, can my noble friend tell me whether, if the Government find one firm continually violating our orders, they are in a position to ban that firm's vehicles from coming into this country?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I answered that Question earlier. I pointed out that we had complained to France about one particular French firm and the French had agreed not to issue permits for that firm to come to Britain.
§ LORD HALEMy Lords, would the noble Lord say to what extent lorries are provided with insurance policies which cover injuries to British subjects on the roads, and to what extent those insurance policies are invalidated if lorries do not conform to regulations or are in a defective condition.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, defective condition is certainly one of the things we examine. They must have papers of sorts but whether they must have the exact papers the noble Lord refers to I am not sure: the noble Lord will have to put down another Question.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend a slightly different question, but covered by the original Question? His replies nearly all concern vehicles overloaded or overweight, but there are other regulations which could be contravened, notably on size. Can the noble Lord say how many cases have been checked at the ports where foreign vehicles that contravened regulations as to length and size have come in?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I am not aware that any have come in in contravention of our regulations. That is what we are there to examine.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, this has been a most spirited debate, and I notice that it is now 26 minutes past three and we have had only two Questions.