HL Deb 11 June 1973 vol 343 cc376-86

2.58 p.m.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON)

My Lords, your Lordships will rarely have seen so short a Bill, and I hope I shall not need to detain the House for long in dealing with what I hope the House will find to be an uncontroversial measure. It is nearly three and a half years since we debated the first Ulster Defence Regiment Bill and over three since the Regiment first undertook operational duties. Since then it has grown considerably in size and it has also established for itself a firm position in Northern Ireland. I am sure that before I turn to the Bill itself it would be right for me to record the thanks from all sides of the House for the valuable, patient and selfless work which members of the Regiment have given to Northern Ireland in these difficult and testing years.

Throughout that time, a key feature of the Regiment's status has been its place as part of the Armed Forces of the Crown. The Bill before the House to-day is, in effect, a further recognition of this because, for many years now, opportunities for service in the Armed Forces have been open to women as well as to men. And women have made a very significant contribution in all three Services, both in general duties and in jobs where particular skills are required.

The Bill opens the door to service in the Ulster Defence Regiment by another section of the community, the women of Northern Ireland. As Clause 1(1) of the Bill declares, its object is to enable women to volunteer and be accepted for service in the Ulster Defence Regiment. Your Lordships may think it odd that when non-discrimination is so widely accepted it should be necessary to pass an Act of Parliament to allow women to join a unit of Her Majesty's Forces. But when the Ulster Defence Regiment was being set up it was not foreseen by the Government of the day that there would be an operational need to employ women; and in defining the character of the new force it was only natural that Parliament at that time should have drawn the boundaries of the new Regiment as closely as possible. Accordingly, Section 1 of the Ulster Defence Regiment Act 1969 restricted enlistment to men. The effect of Clause 1 of the Bill is to remove this restriction and to enable women to serve in the Regiment.

There is an immediate operational need for women members of the Regiment because the I.R.A. often call upon women to transport weapons and explosives. They do so in the knowledge that the security forces are very restricted, in dealing with women suspects, by the lack of women searchers. There is a small number of women in the R.U.C. and in the Army who can on occasion carry out these duties, but they could not be deployed all over the countryside, by day and night, as are the Ulster Defence Regiment, which carries the main burden of checks on cars and passers-by. So there is an operational need for each company of the Ulster Defence Regiment to be able to call on the services of two women searchers to help the daily and nightly patrols.

We hope, if this Bill receives the approval of Parliament, that some 700 women can be recruited into the Ulster Defence Regiment for search duties. But there will be nothing to prevent other women members from being engaged, for example as clerks or telephone operators or radio operators, thus freeing men for operational duties. Women serving in the Ulster Defence Regiment will neither bear arms nor be trained in the use of arms. These women members can be accommodated within the present limit of 10,000 shown in my Department's Estimates and approved in another place.

Clause 1(3) of the Bill extends to women in the Ulster Defence Regiment the advantages already given to men in the Regiment, as to other Service men and women in Her Majesty's Forces, by the Disabled Persons (Employment) Acts. The effect is to allow preferential treatment for vocational training, industrial rehabilitation and assistance towards employment to be given to any disabled person who has served full time in the Regiment. All the other existing provisions of the Ulster Defence Regiment Act 1969 will remain in force. Women members, like men, will primarily be recruited for part-time service. But they will also, like men part-timers, be liable to call-out at times of emergency. Moreover, just as a number of men are employed on the permanent staff of the Regiment on administrative duties, it will be possible in future for women to be similarly employed if the need arises. And just as in the case of men we have attached great importance to excluding extremists of any complexion from the U.D.R., we will do the same in the case of women. The non-sectarian character of the Regiment will continue to be jealously preserved.

Your Lordships have taken the closest interest in the fortunes of the youngest Regiment in the British Army and have watched its growth in these turbulent and often heart-breaking conditions in Northern Ireland in recent years. I believe the House will have been encouraged to note the sense of responsibility and purpose which, in a non-sectarian spirit, a substantial body of men have shown by their service in the Ulster Defence Regiment. I am sure that Parliament and the country at large will welcome the idea of giving some women in Northern Ireland this chance to help in restoring normality and banishing violence; and I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(Lord Carrington.)

3.4 p.m.

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, the Secretary of State has pointed out that when the main Bill was introduced into this House—and may I say that I was responsible for introducing it and still should like to show my "war medals" for this particular operation—we did not foresee the need for the employment of women within the Ulster Defence Regiment. At that time women, and particularly teenage girls, were not as yet heavily involved in the conflict in Northern Ireland; and at that time it seemed perhaps a little bizarre to enrol women into this force. However, times change, and not always for the better, and for this reason I welcome the Secretary of State's proposal to recruit some 700 women into the Ulster Defence Regiment.

May I ask the noble Lord my first question? Presumably they will have a proper structure: there will be women officers as well as women other ranks. I think this is important because as a group they will have special problems and will need special representation. And I welcome the proposal for a second reason—and this deals with my second question—because, as your Lordships may remember, I have always advocated that women should play a role even more important than the one they play at the moment. Without both the support services and the operational services they give—and your Lordships should not forget those operational services—the Armed Forces would be in a poor position. For this reason I have always argued that there should be no differentiation in the treatment of women in the Armed Forces, as there is in fact at present. I do not want to make a great deal of it, but I should like to know the pay structure of the women who are coming into the Ulster Defence Regiment. Is it the same as that of the men, or is there an x factor for men and a y factor for women? This is of some importance. I believe that these women are going to be marked out as potential targets, as are their male colleagues, and they should be treated in terms of emoluments and, with reference to Clause 3, in the terms of any sort of pension arrangements equally with their male colleagues.

I believe these women have a great deal to offer. As the Secretary of State has said, women are getting involved on the side of disorder to an ever-increasing degree. Men do not like the problem of having to search women, and the presence of these women to do the actual searching of people who have been held up is of the utmost importance. They will be able to give most invaluable support services and—may I say also?—will improve morale. It is a fact—and I know this, speaking from my old Royal Air Force days—that where a woman is in quite a senior position as an aircraft controller, if a man operating a fighter aircraft is being guided by a woman's voice it often has extremely beneficial effects on that man in difficult conditions. So I welcome this particular proposal. I want to know that the women who are entering the Ulster Defence Regiment are in fact treated equally with their male colleagues. As a House, we can only wish them well in the very dangerous task they are about to undertake.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord one question? Apparently women have been discriminated against, but when an emergency arises it is discovered that the business in Northern Ireland, so far as the Army is concerned, cannot be conducted without the help of women. So at long last, while they have, as I say, been discriminated against during peace time, now they are, I understand for special reasons, being used in the Army. May I have an assurance that when the emergency is over this discrimination will not be reintroduced and these women will not be discharged from the Army?

3.9 p.m.

LORD DUNLEATH

My Lords, I warmly welcome the proposal in this Bill to admit female recruits to the Ulster Defence Regiment. I suppose that as a member of that regiment myself I ought to declare an interest, but not too close an interest. I have for quite some time privately advocated the course that women should be introduced because from my own experience those areas which suffer most acutely from manpower shortage are those in which women would be not only just as effective as men, but probably even more effective. I am thinking of the kind of cases the noble Lord has mentioned: searching vehicles which have been stopped, and personnel; undertaking typing and general office work; manning teleprinters and other signals equipment, medical and first-aid duties, driving staff cars and, of course, cooking.

I also think that Her Majesty's Government are right in deciding that the women personnel of the U.D.R. should not be armed, because that is a very different thing, and a very different mentality is required in the case of armed personnel for the case of those who are not armed. Proof of the willingness and ability of women to fulfil this type of role is aptly demonstrated, both by the response to the Royal Ulster Constabulary Women's Reserve and by the high level of efficiency and enthusiasm that was displayed by the Territorial Women's Royal Army Corps. I saw a certain amount of them because for a time, until they were disbanded, my wife was Colonel Commandant of the Northern Ireland unit. In fact she was a colonel when I was just a humble captain, but by careful stage management I succeeded in avoiding the ultimate in domestic indignity of actually having to salute her. But I saw at that time that in many ways these girls excelled their male counterparts in their keenness and assiduity. I am sure they will do an excellent job for the U.D.R. and I hope that, if many of them join, at least it may shame some of their men friends and relations into joining as well.

I am filled with admiration for the men of the Ulster Defence Regiment, as indeed I am for those of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the R.U.C. Reserve who have suffered far more hardship and danger than anything to which I have ever been exposed. For this reason I think, with respect, there is a serious omission in the Ulster Defence Regiment Bill. Surely this would be the opportunity to redress the injustice to which the men of the U.D.R. have been subjected over the three years of the regi ment's existence, and the injustice to which perhaps the women will be subjected. I refer to the fact that not only do the men who are at present serving, and also their wives and families, have to suffer the disruption, the inconvenience and indeed apprehension of active duty, perhaps two or three times a week, but also when the regiment is called out considerable financial hardship is involved. In the company in which I have the privilege to serve there have been many instances of men losing more than £20 a week during a period of call-out.

Another problem exists with the full-time members of the U.D.R. Under the consolidated rate of pay—they are known as "con. rate men"—I think they are paid something like £2.75 a day, which is by no means an attractive salary compared with what similar duties and responsibilities would earn in civilian life. From what I have seen, I am sure that this is one of the main reasons why there remain so many vacancies among the full-time members of the Ulster Defence Regiment. On various occasions over the last couple of years attention has been drawn to the financial disadvantage suffered by members of the U.D.R., and in answer it has been pointed out that the salary scale for the part-time members, when they are on call-out, is identical to that of the Regular Army and the Territorial Army. I would submit that neither of these comparisons is really valid. A regular soldier enjoys a much lower cost of living than does his U.D.R. counterpart, together with benefits of security of employment and career opportunities. The U.D.R. man, on the other hand, has to try to hold down his job in civilian life, to placate his wife, find enough time to sleep, to see his children occasionally. pay the rent and rates on his house and provide himself with means of transport to get from his home to the U.D.R. centre.

Furthermore, those regular soldiers in Northern Ireland can look forward to the end of their tour of duty, the duration of which is normally four months. However "hellish" it may be, at least that is something to look forward to. In the case of the U.D.R. man there is no identifiable termination of his tour of duty: for him, it is entirely open-ended. When I was in the Territorial Army it was a very different matter. Most of the people who served did so because they enjoyed it, and many of them were happy to give up part of their holidays or suffer financial sacrifice in order to attend the annual camp, mainly, of course, because of loyalty to the regiment to which they belonged but also because it was fun. I think the fact must be faced that the majority of U.D.R. duties are by no stretch of the imagination fun. Coming home from work at six o'clock in the evening, having a quick meal, changing into uniform in time to get to the U.D.R. centre at 7.30, standing all night guarding a key point, in the knowledge that you may be shot at; returning home again at six o'clock in the morning, just in time to change back into civilian clothes, to have a quick breakfast and go out to work shortly after seven o'clock, is nobody's idea of fun.

In the Territorial Army interesting training and enjoyable social activity were important factors, but in the U.D.R. the operational commitment does not allow for such incentives. I would therefore put it to Her Majesty's Government that in passing the Ulster Defence Regiment Bill, which I warmly support. the opportunity should be taken to rectify the financial imbalance which at present exists, so that the men and their families who are prepared to endure the danger, the hardship, the inconvenience and the unsetting effect of membership of the regiment should at least be relieved of the financial disadvantage which they at present suffer.

I know there have been negotiations with employers to see whether they would make up the wages of U.D.R. members when they are called out. Some employers are well able to do this, but one must not forget the small firm with not many employees and without big reserves. When its members are called out (and many of the members are at lower management level —chargehands, foremen, that sort of level) it is a grave embarrassment to the firm in question, quite apart from having to pay for that embarrassment. This, too, is a matter which should be borne in mind.

I would also suggest that the role of the U.D.R. should be re-examined, to see whether there is any way in which the boredom of the present duties—and they are boring: standing beside a power station or a reservoir with an S.L.R. in your hand all night is not interesting—could be alleviated. If that could be done it would have a good effect on morale and on recruiting.

In conclusion, I should like to raise a couple of points which in fact do not come within the ambit of the Bill now before your Lordships' House but which concern a force with whom we work very closely indeed—the Royal Ulster Constabulary. We see quite a lot of them, and I should like to draw the attention of Her Majesty's Government to the grave degree of frustration and resentment that at present exists within the ranks of the R.U.C. The members of this dedicated and over-stressed force, who are at risk every day of their lives, whether they are on duty or off duty, have still not been granted the special salary allowance which is at present enjoyed by the Prison and Fire Services. I would stress that if this were granted, the result in improved morale would far outweigh the financial cost to the taxpayer.

The second point is that, most regrettably, the Leader of the Democratic Unionist Party in Northern Ireland, by an unscrupulous piece of pre-election scandalmongering has dropped the hint that the R.U.C. are likely to be disbanded. That has been denied by my honourable friend Mr. Peter Mills. I was speaking to a senior civil servant in the aeroplane on the way over here, and he said that there was not a scrap of truth in that suggestion. But if the Leader of the Democratic Unionist Party who shouts so loudly and so often about his loyalty, had been motivated by his loyalty to serve in any of the Armed Forces, he would know that the one way to cause morale to take a nose dive is to hint that the unit is to be disbanded. I ask the noble Lord, therefore, whether he will be good enough—and I am sorry to introduce this matter, but it is urgent—to help to restore confidence by giving a clear, unequivocal assurance that there is no truth whatever in that rumour.

I conclude, my Lords, by sincerely and respectfully asking Her Majesty's Government to give their earnest consideration to the recommendations that I have made.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

My Lords, as several members of the Ulster Defence Regiment have been assassinated or ambushed in their homes, is the Secretary of State absolutely sure that the lack of training in arms for the female members of the regiment is right?

3.21 p.m.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I am grateful to your Lordships for the welcome that you have given this small but important Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom—and I apologise for not having paid tribute to his parentage of the U.D.R.—asked two questions: the first was whether or not there was to be, among the women, a proper structure. I can confirm that there will he, and indeed I agree with him that it would be unthinkable in the circumstances that there should not be. Secondly, the noble Lord asked about pay. Women part-time members of the Ulster Defence Regiment will qualify for pay subject to exactly the same conditions as their male counterparts. They will qualify for Regular Armv women's rates of pay.

The noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, in what I thought was a rather grudging acknowledgement that we had put right what her noble friend had done, asked me about discrimination and what would happen in the future. It is very difficult, of course, to know exactly what will be the requirements for the Ulster Defence Regiment after the emergency is over. I do not think that any of us can foretell that; or indeed when the emergency will be over; or who necessary it will be to have women searchers, and how many and in what proportion. But it is very unlikely that there will be any possible intention of repealing the provisions of the Bill which we are now asking your Lordships' House to pass. It all depends on what the role of the U.D.R. will be.

The noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, is the only Member of your Lordships' House who speaks at first hand about the U.D.R. Coming from him, what he has said is all the more important. May I pay my tribute to him, therefore, for the work that he has done in the U.D.R. in what I know to be extremely difficult circumstances, and which shows a great sense of public duty. The only thing I found a little strange was his unwillingness to salute his wife. We are all infinitely more deferential to our wives than saluting them. He asked me about remedying the injustice on pay which he feels the men in the U.D.R. have suffered. It would be extremely difficult to justify our paying members of the U.D.R. more than is paid to the British Regular Army in Northern Ireland. What we are trying to do is to persuade employers who, after all, are allowing their employees to join the U.D.R. to make up the money which those members of the U.D.R. forgo as a result of being members of the Regiment. Perhaps what the noble Lord has said and the words which I have now spoken will do something to encourage other employers to follow that generous path.

With regard to the other matter which the noble Lord raised, I shall bring that to the attention of my noble friend who is responsible in this House for Northern Ireland matters. But I should like to say—and I associate myself here with Mr. Peter Mills—that there is absolutely no truth in the reported statement about the R.U.C. I am happy to deny that in common with my honourable friend.

In answer to what my noble friend Lord Onslow said, I do not think that it would be appropriate at the present time, or indeed in the foreseeable future, that women members of the Ulster Defence Regiment should be trained in arms and should keep arms in their homes. I do not think that that would be the right thing to do. After all, they are not to be used in exactly the same way as the present members of the Regiment. They will be used for searching other women, and I cannot bring myself to believe that even those who are murdering British soldiers and members of the U.D.R. and R.U.C. in Northern Ireland will bring themselves to murder women of the U.D.R.

May I end as I began by paying my tribute to the Ulster Defence Regiment and reiterating my belief that the recruitment of women will make it more effective and indeed help us in the task of restoring order in Northern Ireland?

On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

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