HL Deb 08 June 1973 vol 343 cc290-3

11.26 a.m.

THE EARL OF GLASGOW

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the proposals to introduce very large ore carriers, and possibly oil tankers, into the channel between the Cumbraes and the Hunterston-Portencross peninsular in the Firth of Clyde and the dangers inherent in so doing, they can say whether a detailed survey of the sea areas involved has been carried out; and, if so, what were its findings.

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, I understand that the Clyde Port Authority have recently carried out check surveys in the area which reveal no significant differences from the depths marked on current Admiralty charts.

THE EARL OF GLASGOW

My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that not entirely satisfactory reply, may I ask: is he aware that there is a large number of retired sea captains who live in the area, some of them having had experience of handling these extremely large ships? Everyone to whom I have spoken regards this project with great alarm and despondency, particularly in view of the proximity of the nuclear power station.

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, I am not aware of what my noble friend has said, but I have no doubt that it is true. My noble friend has asked whether a detailed survey has been carried out. This has been done in a particular area, and is the basis of the statement which I have made to-day.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

My Lords, would my noble friend say whether, if there is a prospect of marine hazard at Portencross, there might not be fresh consideration given to Ardrossan as a terminal? Have the marine implications of that, in regard to the sea-bed, been studied equally carefully?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, the width of the channel here is greater than that which goes up to Loch Finart. In that loch, large tankers can turn round already. There is no reason to believe that the conditions between the Cum-braes and Ayrshire would be any worse—indeed, it is expected that they would be better than that.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

My Lords, is it not a matter to some extent, of cross winds and the movements of tides, and so on, which need to be examined, and not simply of depth and width of channel?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, I will certainly look into that further. I am sure that my noble friend knows from experience—And I would have thought—that the conditions in Loch Finart are very much worse.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, in the Hansard report of this, would it be possible for the word "peninsula" to be spelt correctly as a noun, instead of in the adjectival form? This is not the Government's responsibility, but perhaps it is a matter which the Deputy Leader of the House could clarify.

THE EARL OF GLASGOW

My Lords, I should like to ask my noble friend two supplementary questions. First, does he think that, in developing this industry at Hunterston, we are taking on too many calculated risks? Apart from the navigational hazards, there is the proximity of the nuclear power station, and the danger of a south-westerly gale coinciding with a high spring tide on the land which it is proposed to reclaim. On top of this, of course, we are losing some of the best agricultural land in the West of Scotland. Secondly, even if all these difficulties were overcome, does my noble friend think that the industry which could be amassed at Hunterston would have a sufficient impact on the Scottish economy to be worth ruining for all time one of the most beautiful coasts in the kingdom?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, the considerations to which my noble friend has referred are extremely important, and are being borne in mind by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. My right honourable friend published a guidance to interested parties—parties interested in development, that is—on May 31, 1937. So far as the first part of the question is concerned, when firm development proposals are made, then the whole matter of safety for deep draught vessels, and how deep, will have to be looked into.

LORD WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, if the noble Lord finds that there are problems in the Clyde which make it risky to have these large ore carriers there, would Her Majesty's Government consider using South Wales instead—perhaps Pembrokeshire—for these carriers, so that South Wales could have the benefit?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, if the Government were to find that, no doubt this would be considered; but the Government have been proceeding on the basis that this particular channel is available for deep-draught vessels. There is no reason to suppose that this is not so. So far as the answer I have already given is concerned, I think it will be clear what steps the Government propose to take.

THE EARL OF GLASGOW

My Lords, I am sure my noble friend is aware that there are alternative sites in Scotland.

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, there are alternative sites in Scotland, but the Clyde has a very great reputation as an internationally famous port, and it has always been recognised that this site offers great potentialities.

LORD WIGG

My Lords, as the House is without the services of the Hansard Reporters, would the Government undertake to look into the sense of grievance which has caused these excellent servants of the House to withdraw their labour, and to see that their conditions of service and their rates of pay are—

EARL ST. ALDWYN

My Lords, I really do think the noble Lord is out of order. I made a statement earlier on. If he had wished to make a comment he should have made it then. We are now dealing with a Starred Question and about to move on to other business. I think he is out of order.

LORD WIGG

My Lords, I regret that I am not aware of any rule of order which prevents my saying what I want to say. All I am asking is that the rates of pay should be looked at.

THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE)

My Lords, I think the noble Lord is completely out of order. This matter is not on the order paper, and therefore he is speaking completely out of turn. My noble friend has already made a statement on this matter, and the noble Lord did not make his comment then.