§ 3.16 p.m.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, as it is accepted Government policy that nationalised industries are expected to discuss the broad outlines of any major changes in policy with the bodies representing consumers before taking final decisions, they will state those nationalised industries to which this policy does not apply.
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN)My Lords, the statement of policy to which the noble Baroness refers was contained in the Government's reply to the Report of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries on Relations with the Public. In that context, it applies primarily to those nationalised industries covered in the Select Committee's Report, which were in almost all cases corporations set up as statutory monopolies for the supply of goods or services to the public with statutory consultative councils. A distinction must obviously be made between them and statutory corporations which are in direct competition with other undertakings, and for which Parliament has not provided for statutory consultation machinery. Nevertheless, Her Majesty's Government expect all nationalised industries to take into account the effects of major changes in policy on the interests of their consumers and, whenever appropriate, to discuss them with such bodies as appear to them to represent those interests.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that answers of such a length as that are always unsatisfactory and that if a satisfactory answer were to be given it would 187 be a great deal shorter? May I further ask the noble Lord whether he is not really ashamed to give a reply like that? Is he aware that we in your Lordships' House regard him as a spokesman for consumer matters, which have always represented one of his great interests? Is he not also aware that it is quite untrue to say that the nationalised airlines, B.O.A.C. and B.E.A. (now called British Airways) are not a nationalised industry? Why is it that the Government are not prepared for a council to be set up to which air travellers can direct suggestions and comments?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I am sorry if the noble Baroness found my Answer long. I was trying to answer the Question fully and I thought that perhaps a shorter answer might have left a misleading impression. I am not in the slightest ashamed of the length of my Answer. As to the question of nationalised industry, I think it is right to make the distinction between an industry which is entirely nationalised and a statutory corporation operating in competition with other undertakings in the same field. In that respect, of course, B.E.A. and B.O.A.C. are in a separate position. They are responsible for receiving consumer complaints. They deal with them, and it is up to them to decide whether or not to set up voluntary consumer consultative machinery.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I find it very difficult to remain polite while commenting on that supplementary answer? Does he not realise that this House, I think on all sides, has become very weary of these repetitive answers which get us nowhere on this particular matter? Is he further aware that all I am asking for is that consumers in the air should have the same opportunities as consumers in other areas to take their complaints and suggestions to a body which is independent of the industry concerned?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I realise that that is what the noble Baroness is asking for, but my answer must remain the same: that at the moment this is not a matter which is covered by legislation. It is a matter for the corporations concerned as to 188 whether they should set up their own voluntary machinery—as indeed it is also for the Civil Aviation Authority. I am bound to add that the Government are watching this whole area carefully. I would ask the noble Baroness to be a little more patient still because the Civil Aviation Authority has not been in operation so very long and the British Airways Board has only recently been set up.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, is the noble Lord implying in his last answer but one that because the Airways Corporations are in competition with private enterprise, therefore it is perfectly all right for them to ride roughshod over the consumer in a way which a fully nationalised industry would not do?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNNo, my Lords; I was not implying that at all—indeed, in some respects the more the competition, the more those engaging in the competition have to have regard to what the consumer really wants. The point is that the issue is not as simple as the noble Baroness was making out the other day. She wanted to establish an air travellers' national council; that is a different proposition from the one put by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, the other day that there should be a consultative body for the Airways Board.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord could tell my noble friend—by letter at any rate—what was our experience over a matter of some15 or 20 years of the Council established under the 1948 Act that provided specially for consumer representations.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I can tell the noble Lord straight away. It covered a very wide range of interests coterminous, roughly, with the Civil Aviation Authority's interests, and it fell into desuetude simply because it had no real bite; it covered far too wide interests. That is the previous experience. It would be unwise to set up the same kind of body again. It does not follow that we should not have a voluntary body set up at some time or another if this is what the airways themselves decide.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I am not suggesting that anything should be set up without bite. I 189 could make some excellent suggestions to give such a body bite.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the noble Baroness does not surprise me.