§ 2.59 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that the law relating to betting shops is being adhered to, particularly in regard to loitering and running commentaries.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS)My Lords, to our knowledge the practices adopted in licensed betting offices are not directly contrary to the law. Loitering is not expressly forbidden, but the intention was that it should be discouraged by prohibiting, for example, the provision of television and broadcasting facilities and of entertainment or refreshments. However, commentaries on horse races are provided lawfully in betting offices by means of direct lines, and this does undoubtedly conduce to loitering.
§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARDMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, I should like to ask him whether he is aware that my information is that many customers loiter on the premises the whole afternoon, and this must surely be a cause of considerable absenteeism. Would not my noble friend agree that the chief reason for this is the running commentary which is put out by both T.V. and sound radio? My opinion is that it is not always as my noble friend has said. My reading of the Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act 1963 is that you cannot have commentaries in betting shops if it is by television or sound radio as used by the general public.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, my noble friend has read it 1655 absolutely correctly. He is referring to paragraph 5(b)(ii) of Schedule 4 to the Betting, Gaining and Lotteries Act 1963. He is absolutely correct. It is not a broadcast, but a direct line, whether it relates to the sound commentary or the television. As to loitering, I do not think anyone would be particularly happy about this. One has to bear in mind that the object of the legislation was to strike a balance between providing people with legitimate facilities for betting, and preventing such facilities from being so disagreeable that people went back to the illegal forms of betting which prevailed before. We may not have got the balance right, but that was the intention of the legislation.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, could the Minister say why it is wrong for men to be in a betting shop and listening to the commentary, while anyone can go to Ascot to watch the racing? Why should he say that there is absenteeism by people in betting shops, and yet not mention those people who are at Ascot?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I appreciate that there may be occasions in your Lordships' House where this element is a little obvious, but I hope that does not count as absenteeism. As I have said before, the intention of the legislation was to try to strike a correct balance.
§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARDMy Lords, the noble Lord would be a hero to many thousands of wives in this country if he would prod his Department into producing legislation to tighten up generally on betting shops.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I should be very glad to have positive proposals, but the difficulty is to find something which does not strike at one or other half of the balance I have mentioned. If my noble friend could make positive suggestions, I should not be averse to looking at them.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that wives also bet?