HL Deb 18 July 1973 vol 344 cc1346-60

1. Section 3 shall cease to have effect.

2. In section 5—

  1. (a) in subsection (1), for the words 'the appointed day', in both places where they occur, there shall be substituted the words '16th May 1975';
  2. (b) in subsection (2), the words from 'but' onwards shall cease to have effect;
  3. (c) after subsection (2) there shall be inserted the following subsections—

"SCHEDULE 1
REPRESENTATIVE COMMISSIONERS
Local Authority Number of Representatives Part of Local Authority Area represented Number of Representatives for each part of Local Authority Area Number of Representatives of associations or clubs
1 2 3 4 5
District Council of Merse. 9 Former Burgh of Coldstream 2 1
Former Burgh of Duns 2 1
Former Burgh of Eyemouth 2 1
Remainder of the Council's area 3 2
District Council of Roxburgh. 9 Former Burgh of Jedburgh 2 1
Former Burgh of Kelso 2 1
Former Burgh of Hawick 2 1
Remainder of the Council's area 3 2
District Council of Ettrick Forest. 11 Former Burgh of Selkirk 2 1
Former Burgh of Lauder. 2 1
Former Burgh of Galashiels 2 1
Former Burgh of Melrose 2 1
Remainder of the Council's area 3 2
District Council of Tweeddale. 5 Former Burgh of Peebles 2 1
Former Burgh of Innerleithen 2 1
Remainder of the Council's area 1 —
Berwick on Tweed District council. 9 Former Borough of Berwick-upon-Tweed. 2 1
The rural district of Norham and Islandshires. 2 1
The rural district of Glendale 4 3
The remainder of the River Tweed catchment area within the County of Northumberland. 1 —")

The noble Lord said: Perhaps with this Amendment we might discuss Nos. 180, 181, 226 and 232. Under Section 5(1) of the Tweed Fisheries Act 1969 certain local authorities in the River Tweed catchment area were authorised on or before February 1, 1970, to appoint specified numbers of people to act as representative commissioners for the purposes of the Act. The local authorities concerned and the number of representatives appropriate are specified in columns 1 and 2 respectively in Schedule 1 to the Act. The new clause and Schedule, and the consequential Amendments, transfer to the new district councils the function

3. In section 6(2)(a), before the word 'burgh' there shall be inserted the word 'former'

4. In section 7(3), before the word 'burgh' there shall be inserted the word 'former'.

5. For Schedule 1 there shall be substituted the following Schedule—

of appointing representative commissioners under the 1969 Act. The existing commissioners will be removed, and new ones appointed by the new district councils will act on and after May 16, 1975, as commissioners for the purposes of the 1969 Act.

BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD

The names on the Schedule are not correct. I do not know whether this is the moment when we ought to alter them, but yesterday we agreed two new names.

LORD DRUMALBYN

I think it would be asking a bit much for us to have been expected to put down another Amendment overnight in order to get that right. Perhaps we may be allowed to put it right later.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

We could do it now by means of a manuscript Amendment.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD CHAMPION)

If there is to be a manuscript Amendment, it will have to be written and handed to the Chairman. That is something I must insist on.

LORD HOY

I do not object to that happening, but I know this part of the country extremely well. Can the Minister assure us that all the local authorities have been consulted about this and have agreed to these changes being made?

LORD DRUMALBYN

They have been consulted. This, of course, is a straight transfer which is necessitated by the change in the type of local authority that has been set up.

BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD

I was not querying the change, but only the wrong names.

LORD DRUMALBYN

We are concerned here with identifiable places. If we make an Amendment at the next stage of the Bill I hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw her query.

Clauses 210 to 212 agreed to.

LORD POLWARTH

Amendment No. 181 is a consequential Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— After Clause 212, insert the following new clause:

Tweed Fisheries Commissioners

"212A.—(1) On 16th May 1975 each person holding office as a representative commissioner under the Tweed Fisheries Act 1969 shall go out of office.

(2) The function of appointing representative commissioners under the said Act of 1969 shall be transferred to the district councils of Merse, Roxburgh, Ettrick Forest and Tweed-dale and the Berwick on Tweed District Council.

(3) The said Act of 1969 shall have effect subject to the amendments set out in Schedule 25A of this Act."—(Lord Polwarth.)

LORD HUGHES

I take it that the point the noble Baroness, Lady Elliott, has raised will be dealt with at the Report stage and that appropriate Amendments will be brought forward by the Government to insert the right names.

LORD POLWARTH

Certainly.

Clause 213 agreed to.

Schedule 26 [Adaptation and Amendment of Enactments]:

12.26 a.m.

LORD POLWARTH moved Amendment No. 182:

Page 251, line 21, at end add— ("In section 11(2), after the word "the" there shall be inserted the words" area of the former".")

The noble Lord said: This Amendment has the effect of maintaining the unusual position of the City of Glasgow in relation to the Celluloid and Cinematograph Film Act 1922, in that Glasgow under one of its local Acts has wider powers than in the general Statute. We are enabling them to retain these wider powers. I beg to move.

THE DUKE OF ATHOLL moved Amendment No. 183: Page 256, line 31, leave out lines 31 to 33.

The noble Duke said: The Border Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) Act 1951 makes provision for joint committees of river boards and river purification boards on both sides of the Border. Section 17 of that Act defines the responsible board. The Amendment seeks to substitute the words "purification authority" for "purification board", but Clause 134 refers only to "purification board". In those circumstances, I suggest that paragraph 99 should be deleted as being both wrong and unnecessary. I beg to move.

LORD POLWARTH

I am grateful to the noble Duke, and am glad to accept this Amendment as a drafting improvement.

LORD POLWARTH moved Amendment No. 192: Page 268, line 9, at end insert—

("The Island of Rockall Act 1972

189A. In section 1, for the words from "District" to "Inverness" there shall be substituted the words "Western Isles".")

The noble Lord said: This Amendment redefines "local authority" for the purpose of Section 11 of the Independent Broadcasting Authority Act 1973. Section 11 makes provision for the appointment of local advisory committees in respect of all the local authorities whose sound broadcasting services are needed by the Authority.

THE DUKE OF ATHOLL

My noble friend has left out one of his Amendments about the Island of Rockall.

LORD POLWARTH

I beg your Lordships' pardon. I was trying to beat the Deputy Chairman of Committees in the race to it. Amendment No. 192 is a minor Amendment to substitute the name of the new local authority area as the fortunate one to possess the remarkable and outlying Island of Rockall. I beg to move.

LORD POLWARTH moved Amendment No. 193A: Page 268, line 24, at end insert—

("The Independent Broadcasting Authority Act 1973

In section 11(6)(b), for the words from "council" to "small burgh" there shall he substituted the words "regional, islands or district council".")

The noble Lord said: This Amendment redefines "local authority" for the purpose of Section 11 of the Independent Broadcasting Authority Act 1973. I have already spoken to it out of order, and I hope your Lordships will accept the Amendment. I beg to move.

Schedule 26, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 214 to 216 agreed to.

Clause 217 [Staff commission for Scotland]:

LORD HUGHES

Amendments Nos. 193B and 193C hang together. They are important Amendments from the point of view of staff. It would be a nonsense to speak to them at this time of night, and I do not propose to move them. I will, however, resubmit them on Report.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

I should like to say that I think the Staff commission arrangement is very important. It is confined entirely to the operation of this Bill. I am going to ask the Government whether this might not be a permanent institution in Scotland, primarily designed to maintain the standards and facilities of transfer of local officers. I believe it might be of considerable importance and I would ask the Government to look at that point.

LORD POLWARTH

I think that all the noble Earl would expect me to do at the moment is to say that I will certainly look at it.

Clause 217 agreed to.

Clauses 218 to 220 agreed to.

Clause 221 [Transfer of Property]:

12.31 a.m.

LORD POLWARTH moved Amendment No. 194: Page 134, line 38, after ("property") insert ("which is subject to the provisions of section (educational endowments) or (property held on trust) of this Act or property").

The noble Lord said: This Amendment, together with the proposed new clause after Clause 221, seeks to ensure that the new authorities will be able to fulfil their duties in relation to trusts which are held by existing authorities or in which existing authorities have an interest. The new clause is the operative part: the Amendment is in fact consequential. This is purely a question of continuity. The clause is designed to enable these trusts to continue operating with the minimum changes necessary in their administration. I hope your Lordships will accept that as an explanation of the new clause.

Clause 221, as amended, agreed to.

LORD POLWARTH

I beg to move Amendment No. 195.

Amendment moved— After Clause 221 insert the following new clause—

Property held on trust

—(1) All property held on trust immediately before 16th May 1975 by

  1. (a) an existing local authority, or
  2. (b) a councillor and a specified officer of an existing local authority,
shall on that day be transferred to and vest (subject to the same trust) in the appropriate islands or district council.

(2) The council in whom property is vested by virtue of subsection (1) above shall nominate a sufficient number of their councillors to act as trustees of that property and in so doing shall have regard to the terms of the trust deed; and where the property is held immediately before 16th May 1975 by the persons mentioned in subsection (1)(b) above, the council shall nominate the proper officer as one of the trustees.

(3) All property held on trust immediately before 16th May 1975 by a specified officer of an existing local authority shall on that day be transferred to and vest (subject to the same trust) in the proper officer of the appropriate islands or district council.

(4) Where, immediately before 16th May 1975, property is held on trust by the holder of an office, whether as a councillor or a specified officer, connected with an existing local authority or existing local authorities and any other person, the appropriate islands or district council or (where the area to which the trust relates comprises the areas of more than one existing local authority) the appropriate islands or district councils shall, on the application of the trustees, nominate a sufficient number of their councillors to act in place of such holder and in so doing shall have regard to the terms of the trust deed, and, where the terms of the trust deed so require, the said council or councils shall nominate the proper officer as one of the trustees.

(5) In this section "appropriate islands or district council" means, in relation to an existing local authority, the islands or district council whose area comprises the whole or the greater part of the area of the existing local authority, and "appropriate islands or district councils" shall be construed accordingly.

(6) This section shall not apply to property which is subject to section (educational endowments) of this Act."—(Lord Polwarth.)

Clauses 222 to 225 agreed to.

LORD POLWARTH moved Amendment No. 196: After Clause 225 insert the following new clause—

Abolition of fiars courts for counties, etc.

"225A.—(1) The courts for striking the fiars prices for the counties of Scotland shall no longer be held, and accordingly no payment becoming due after the appointed day shall be calculated by reference to fiars prices.

(2) Subject to the provisions of section 12 of the Conveyancing (Scotland) Act 1924 (abolition and commutation of grain, etc. feu-duties) the amount of any periodical payment becoming due after the appointed day which would, if it had become due immediately before that day, have fallen to be ascertained by reference to fiars prices, shall be a sum in money representing the average value of the payment due during the last three years before that day.

(3) In the event of the parties failing to reach agreement as to the commutation into money of any payment by referent( to subsection (2) above, either party may apply to the sheriff for a decree declaring the commuted value in money of the payment.

(4) Where any payment, the amount of which falls to be ascertained by reference to subsection (2) above, is exigible from any person by virtue of an interest in land, the title to which may be recorded in the Register of Sasines, any agreement relative thereto and any decree pronounced under subsection (3) above shall, on being duly recorded in the appropriate register, be binding upon all persons having interest.

(5) Any valuation or question mentioned in subsection (4) of section 75 of the Agricultural Holdings (Scotlanqd) Act 1949, falling to be decided by reference to a date after the appointed day, which would, if it had fallen to be decided by reference to a date immediately before that day, have been decided by reference to fiars prices, shall be decided in such manner as the parties may by agreement determine or, failing such agreement shall, notwithstanding the provisions of that subsection, be decided by arbitration under that Act.

(6) In this section "the appointed day" means the day appointed under section 235 of this Act for the coming into operation of this section."

The noble Lord said: I am afraid that this is an Amendment of substance which I shall have to explain but I will do so as briefly as I can. The purpose of this clause is to abolish the institution known in Scotland as the fiars court in the counties of Scotland to make provision for those money payments which are still calculated on the basis of the commodity prices fixed by them. As Scottish Members of your Lordships' House will know, the fiars prices struck in any county of Scotland are the sheriffs' assessment of the average prices at which the different sorts of grain produced in the county at the last harvest were sold. They are used to calculate the current cash value of the various payments which were once made in kind but are now made in money. While they are still used for a variety of purposes, the number of occasions on which they are used is small and is becoming smaller every year. With the disappearance of counties as administrative units, following the reorganisation, and the probable alteration of sheriff court districts and sheriffdoms to coincide with the new local government areas, the abolition of the fiars court will eliminate the need for special provision for the continuation of a process which is out of date and falling into disuse.

I might add that the Committee on Sheriff Courts, under the chairmanship of the late Lord Grant, recommended that fiars prices should cease to be struck. Unless your Lordships would like a longer explanation of this matter, I would propose to leave it at that, except to say that while, naturally, we regret the passing of any institution of an historical kind in Scotland, the fact is that the purpose for which the fiars court exists has virtually disappeared. This Amendment replaces it by a less laborious method.

Clause 226 agreed to.

Schedule 27 agreed to.

Clauses 227 to 229 agreed to.

Clause 230 [Orders, rules and regulations]:

LORD POLWARTH

I beg to move Amendment No. 198, which is consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 142, line 12, leave out ("(a)").—(Lord Polwarth.)

Clause 230, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 231 and 232 agreed to.

Clause 233 [Savings]:

LORD POLWARTH

I beg to move Amendment No. 201 which is a consequential Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 144, line 33, leave out ("1962 and 1969") and insert ("1939 to 1973").—(Lord Polwarth.)

Clause 233, as amended, agreed to

Clause 234 agreed to.

Schedule 28 [Repeals]:

12.37 a.m.

LORD POLWARTH

I beg to move Amendment No. 202 which is a consequential Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 284, line 5, column 3, at end insert ("In section 5(3), the words from "and the fee" onwards.")—(Lord Polwarth.)

LORD DRUMALBYN

Amendment No. 203 is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 286, line 2, column 3, after ("110") insert (C in subsection (1), the definition of "Large burgh", and")—(Lord Drumalbyn.)

LORD POLWARTH

I beg to move Amendment No. 204, which is a consequential Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 287, line 25, column 3, at end insert ("(4),")—(Lord Polwarth.)

LORD DRUMALBYN

I beg to move Amendment No. 210. This also is a consequential Amendment.

Amendment moved:— Page 291, line 23, at end insert—

("14 & 15 Geo. 6. c. 15. The Local Government (Scotland) Act 1951. The whole Act.")

—(Lord Drumalbyn.)

12.40 a.m.

THE DUKE OF ATHOLL moved Amendment No. 213: Page 291, line 31, column 3, leave out ("section 11").

The noble Duke said: I should like to ask a brief question on this Amendment. In this Schedule Section 11 of the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) (Scotland) Act 1951 is repealed. My Amendment would seek to have Section 11 kept. Section 11 deals with the making of bylaws. I feel sure that it must be possible to make by-laws under Clause 134, which was inserted in this Bill on the Committee stage in another place, but I should like my noble friend to assure me that it is. It would probably be an advantage to these boards to be able to make by-laws in certain cases. I beg to move.

LORD DRUMALBYN

I am informed that Section 11 is no longer necessary because the provisions of Clause 202, "Procedure for by-laws", take its place.

THE DUKE OF ATHOLL

I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD DRUMALBYN

This Amendment was discussed with Amendment No. 134. I beg to move:

Amendment moved—

Page 291, line 35, column 3, at end insert ("In section 29(4), the words from "subject" onwards.")—(Lord Drumalbyn.)

THE DUKE OF ATHOLL

This Amendment is on the same point as a previous Amendment which the Government accepted, that under Clause 134 the river purification authorities have now gone back to being called "river purification boards". I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 291, line 37, column 3, leave out (""river purification boards or"") and insert (""or river purification authorities"")—(The Duke of Atholl)

LORD DRUMALBYN

The effect of this Amendment would be to limit the holding of inquiries under Section 31 of the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) (Scotland) Act 1951 to the functions of river purification boards only, to the exclusion of islands councils as river purification authorities. It is desirable that any inquiry which might be held under Section 31 of the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) (Scotland) Act 1951 should relate not only to the functions of river purification boards but also to those of islands councils which, along with river purification boards, fall within the meaning of "river purification authorities" in Section 17(2) of the 1951 Act as amended by Schedule 16.

THE DUKE OF ATHOLL

In that case, as we have gone back to calling them "river purification boards", ought not the words: "In Section 30(1), the words 'river purification boards or'" to be deleted from these repeals? I fully appreciate my noble friend's point about the islands councils, and realise that we still have to retain the word "authorities" but I should have thought we now need to delete the whole of the sentence I have referred to.

LORD DRUMALBYN

I shall be very glad to have a look at that point. I am afraid I cannot give my noble friend the answer right away.

THE DUKE OF ATHOLL

I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 220: Page 295, line 6, column 3, at beginning insert ("Section 27").

The noble Lord said: This Amendment effects a minor repeal in the light of the relaxation of central Government control over local authorities. It removes the transitional position of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 which gave the Secretary of State power to repeal or amend local enactments which were inconsistent with that Act. The provision is now spent.

12.45 a.m.

LORD DRUMALBYN

Amendment No. 222 is consequential on the repeal of Section 28 of the Public Health (Scotland) Act 1897, in paragraph 31 of Schedule 26. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 301, line 24, column 3, at end insert— ("In Schedule 1, paragraph 1.").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTTES (LORD CHAMPION)

I notice that Amendments Nos. 223 to 231 stand in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Polwarth, and I wonder whether he would care to move them en bloc.

LORD DRUMALBYN

These Amendments are all consequential or have been previously discussed. I beg to move Amendments Nos. 223 to 231 en bloc.

Amendments moved—

Page 301, line 46, column 3, at end insert— ("In section 10(1)(xvi), the words "and the consent of the Minister". Section 11(4).")

Page 301, line 53, column 3, at end insert— ("In section 16, in subsection (2), the words from "and (d)" onwards, and subsections (3), (4) and (5). In section 18, in subsection (1), the words "to the Minister and", and in subsection (2), the words "to the Minister and". Section 21 (5)(a).")

Page 302, line 13, column 3, after ("12") insert ("14")

Page 303, line 41, at end insert—

("1969 c. xxiv. The Tweed Fisheries Act 1969. Section 3. In section 5(2) the words from "but" onwards.")

Page 304, line 46, column 3, at end insert— ("In section 43, in subsection (1), the words from "and (b)" onwards, and in subsection (3), the words from "and the notice" onwards.")

Page 304, line 52, column 3, at end insert— ("In section 107(3), he words" application for".")

Page 305, line 20, column 3, at end insert— ("In section 153(1), the words from" (other "to" State)".")

Page 305, line 27, column 3, after ("(5)") insert ("paragraph (b) and")

Page 305, line 46, at end insert—

(" 1973 c.28. The Rate Rebate Act 1973. The whole Act.")

—(Lord Drumalbyn.)

Schedule 28, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 235 [Short title, commencement and extent]:

LORD DRUMALBYN

I beg to move Amendment No. 232, which has been discussed with Amendment No. 180.

Amendment moved— Page 145, line 21, leave out ("section 145(5)") and insert ("sections 92, 145(5) and 212A and Schedule 25A")—(Lord Drumalbyn.)

LORD HUGHES

I do not think we can congratulate ourselves on the way in which we have proceeded in the latter part of this Bill. We have got through it in the two days but in a most unsatisfactory fashion, and it is obvious that we did not allow sufficient time for the enormous number of Amendments that were tabled. We have got to this stage only at the expense of having a whole lot of the Amendments to be re-submitted at Report stage and I am afraid that while most of us had hoped that the Report stage would be fairly brief, it is not now going to be.

I am not opposing this Amendment. My real purpose in rising was to say that having got to the end of this stage we owe a very special debt of gratitude to the Deputy Chairman of Committees, the noble Lord, Lord Champion. If we had all spoken as quickly and with as few—or no—mistakes as he has done, we might have made the deadline of twelve o'clock at which we were aiming and I think it would be wrong if we were to reach the end of this remarkable occasion without expressing our thanks to him.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Hear, hear!

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD CHAMPION)

The noble Lord is much too kind.

Clause 235, as amended, agreed to.

House resumed: Bill reported, with the Amendments.