§ 3.13 p.m.
§ LORD GIFFORDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given Private Notice. The Question is as follows:
§ "To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in the light of Press and public reaction to reports of massacres perpetrated by the Portuguese armed forces in Mozambique, they will cancel the forthcoming visit of the Prime Minister of Portugal."
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)No, my Lords.
§ LORD GIFFORDMy Lords, does the noble Baroness realise that the main object of Dr. Caetano in coming here is to gain further British support for a 741 colonial posture maintained by these methods of barbarity? Are the Government still anxious, in the face of this evidence from courageous priests in Mozambique, to provide that support? Does the noble Baroness appreciate that this dictator is regarded with contempt by British people who will certainly, next week, match their views with appropriate action?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, so far as the first comment of the noble Lord is concerned, the visit of President Caetano to this country is in connection with the 600 years anniversary of the alliance between Britain and Portugal. So far as the allegations in the Press are concerned, while naturally they would cause concern to anyone who read them, we have no facts to substantiate them, and the Portuguese Government, and the Portuguese Embassy here, have in fact repudiated them.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, in view of the fact that this alleged terrible incident took place over six months ago, it is not odd that the first news of it appeared just five days before the visit of the Prime Minister of Portugal?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I understand that Father Hastings, who wrote the article which gave rise to these reports, did say on B.B.C. 2 last night that he had had the reports for some time but had withheld them until they could have the best effect.
§ LORD HARVEY OF PRESTBURYMy Lords, does my noble friend recall that two months ago the Leader of the Labour Party, when in Prague, said, "Let bygones be bygones", and is she aware that some of us have not forgotten that?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEWell, my Lords, in any case, as I said earlier, this visit is in connection with the 600 years' alliance between our two countries.
§ LORD KENNETMy Lords, is not this discussion getting a little wide? Did the noble Baroness herself see the English priest on the television last night, and is she aware that that is not what he said? I saw him, and I remember his saying something quite different; namely, that 742 he had not arranged this to create any special effect and that he had not had the reports long—although he did not specify how long he had had them. On the noble Baroness's first Answer, commendable for its brevity, may I make this point—
§ LORD KENNETMy Lords, may I ask her the following question? Would she not have found the straight Answer, "No, my Lords," more appropriate if the Portuguese Government had said that they would themselves inquire into the matter? Is it not the case that our own Prime Minister has said this afternoon that he is launching an appropriate inquiry through British diplomatic sources? May we not contrast this with the outright refusal of the Portuguese Government to institute any inquiry and their rejection without inquiry of charges? And, of course, without inquiry, we do not know whether or not the charges are well-founded?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, we are, of course, in touch with the Portuguese authorities as well as with our Ambassador in Lisbon and also our Consul General in Lourenco Marques. This is not a matter for Her Majesty's Government, but I understand that the Portuguese Secretariat of State for Information has said in a statement at Lisbon that this case would certainly be investigated in accordance with established procedure if the place name could be identified but that it could not be traced on the map of Mozambique. Similar past cases had been investigated and where guilt had been established those responsible had been punished, although such cases had been few.
§ LORD WADEMy Lords, would the Portuguese Government allow a body such as Amnesty International to make an inquiry in a case such as this? It is precisely this kind of case where a body known not to be ideologically biased, should, if possible, be called in. I think that that would set at rest the uneasiness felt by a great many people.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am sure that the Portuguese Government will take note of the noble Lord's comments, but this is, of course, entirely a matter for them.
§ LORD COLERAINEMy Lords, may I ask whether my noble friend is aware that on B.B.C.1 last night the Reverend Adrian Hastings confessed—I think that is the right word—that he did not write the article which appeared in The Times under his name; that he wrote only the first paragraph and that the rest of it was compiled from unidentified sources? May I ask also whether she is satisfied that The Times newspaper had checked the evidence before publishing the article, and whether she does not think that perhaps this is a matter which should be referred to the Press Council to see whether in fact The Times newspaper did check the evidence.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I was not aware of that particular point that my noble friend says was made by Father Hastings. Of course, Her Majesty's Government are not responsible for articles which appear in the public Press, and it is entirely the responsibility of the public Press to check the facts.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, does not this issue go much deeper even than this appalling report of a massacre? Does it not go to the point of whether Her Majesty's Government are supporting the Portuguese Government in its whole colonialist policy for Africa? And is it not the case that if the Portuguese send their Prime Minister or other representative to this country, it will be with the opposition of the majority of the people of this Island?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I would myself hesitate to say whether one represented the majority of the people of this Island, and I think that the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, is brave to do so. I would say that we value our relations with Portugal as a NATO ally. We are often in open disagreement with her on her policy towards Africa, but we do not consider that as a reason for refusing to have good relations with her.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, would not the noble Baroness agree that raising this matter at this specific time is against the British principle of fair play and courtesy? Would she also not agree that in effect what we are doing, or some of us are doing, in raising this matter now 744 is criticising not so much the Portuguese Government but the Portuguese people? Would my noble friend not agree that if quite a number of noble Lords opposite knew more of the general flow of people in Portugal in effect they would not venture to criticise in the way they are?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I really do not think it is for Her Majesty's Government to comment on the timing of an article in the newspapers.
§ THE EARL OF ONSLOWMy Lords, would the noble Baroness not think that if the Portuguese Government is guilty of a cover-up of a massacre of this sort then from my personal point of view, as a Tory, Premier Caetano is not welcome?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am sure that that also will be noted by the Portuguese authorities; but the fact remains that so far as our responsibility is concerned we have no facts to substantiate these allegations.
§ LORD DONALDSON OF KINGSBRIDGEMy Lords, would The Times allow me to correct, or attempt to correct the statement of the noble Lord, Lord Coleraine? I heard this clergyman on the B.B.C. last night and I would stake my life that he did not say that the article was unquoted.
A NOBLE LORD: He did not say that.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I think the noble Lord is asking me a question as to whether I am aware that he disagrees with my noble friend Lord Coleraine; I am now aware of it.
§ LORD GEORGE-BROWNMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether for a long time now, under Labour Governments and Conservative Governments, we have been careful not to avoid accepting tyrants? We have been willing to accept tyrants; we have been willing to accept tyrants who ran colonialist policies even in Europe. May I ask the noble Baroness whether she is aware that some of my honourable friends are falling into the trap of choosing which tyrants, which colonialists policies, they are willing to 745 accept? Does the noble Baroness not realise that quite a number of us well experienced in this field know that Roman Catholic Missions could not provide the clinical evidence that Mr. Rhys Mogg published yesterday?—or whenever it was. It could not possibly have been checked in that detail. Is she not aware that many of us who are Socialists—speaking for myself—detect a political motivation in this that has nothing to do with social democracy but just wishes to reject one tyrant that they think we should not have? And, again speaking for myself, is she aware that if we are going to apply this policy to our foreign policy, Mr. Brezhnev would never appear here?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I think that perhaps the whole House would agree with the noble Lord in this sense, that if we always commented on the internal affairs of countries with whom we have diplomatic relations and sought to criticise them, there would perhaps be few people in fact who could be received here.
§ LORD KENNETMy Lords, in view of the unspeakable nature of the charges, and in view of the fact that the newspaper concerned does not often fail to check its facts, would the noble Baroness take note that in view of the fact that the Portuguese Embassy in London has rejected the charges without investigation it might be desirable to find a tactful opportunity of postponing this visit?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, in answer to the first Question put to me on the Order Paper, my answer was, "No, my Lords".