§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what reply has been received from the British Airways Board concerning suggestions that check-in facilities for B.E.A. and B.O.A.C. should be amalgamated at one or the other town terminal now being used.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I understand that the Group Managing Director of the British Airways Board will be writing to the noble Baroness to give the Board's views on this suggestion.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYYes, my Lords, but I do not want any more letters. Does the Minister recall that the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, on June 27, when asked what was to prevent British Airways' amalgamating their check-in facilities at the B.O.A.C. terminal, replied, "Probably accommodation"? If that is so, why cannot the more than one million people who need these 731 services and who cannot be accommodated at the B.O.A.C. Terminal stay at the West London Air Terminal where they are now? May I also ask whether the Minister and B.E.A. are quite incapable of realising the problems of ordinary travellers with families and luggage, who do not go to Heathrow by taxi, by private car, by a British Airways executive car or by Government limousine? Finally, may I ask whether it is quite impossible for the Government and B.E.A. to realise, as everybody else does, the chaos and the hardship that will result?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I do recall the reply given by my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn, in which he also said that he would draw the suggestion which the noble Baroness had made to the attention of the British Airways Board. This is the responsibility of the British Airways Board. They are considering the suggestion which the noble Baroness has made, and I therefore think it would be impossible for me to comment further upon it until they have considered that suggestion.
§ BARONESS STOCKSMy Lords, has any member of Her Majesty's Government, or indeed any Member of this House, ever met anybody who does not regard with horror the conditions which will prevail at Heathrow if these facilities for air passengers are withdrawn?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, the intention, of course, is that the facilities for the travelling public as a whole will be improved.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend, if the objection so far given in answer has been the lack of accommodation for increased facilities at the B.O.A.C. Terminal, whether consideration has been given to the question of covering the railways behind the terminal and continuing the bridge from Victoria Station, which would give ample accommodation for the assistance of B.E.A. travellers; and could we not have an answer as to what the real objection is? We have never had it.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I can only tell my noble friend that the British Airways Board are considering this suggestion.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, arising out of the Minister's reply, may I ask him this question? While the British Airways Board are considering this suggestion, would it not be the duty of Her Majesty's Government to make representations to the British Airways Board, in that, as the Minister knows, the Act reserves to the Minister matters of public interest? I believe that the comfort of many thousands of travellers is a matter beyond the responsibility of purely the British Airways Board, but is also the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government, who should take action.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I take the point which the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, has made. But, of course, the Civil Aviation Act set up the Civil Aviation Authority; and included in the Act are certain provisions with regard to taking care of the interests of the users of airlines. This has in fact been done by the proposal of the Civil Aviation Authority to set up a Consumers' Advisory Council.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, I am quite aware that the Civil Aviation Authority has been set up, but the point on which I ask the Minister to give me a clear answer is this. Does the setting up of the Civil Aviation Authority in any way detract from the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government under the Act to deal with matters of national interest, and does not the comfort of tens of thousands of travellers become a matter of national interest?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, it does not detract from the Government's obligation to take account of the national interest, but I am advised that this particular subject would not come within the purview of the national interest.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, could my noble friend say whether, if this terminal in Cromwell Road is in fact abolished, we shall be the only major capital in Europe which expects passengers, both British passengers and foreigners, to travel something like ten miles to an airfield, or whether there are other countries in the same position?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, at the moment we are the only country in Europe which has a town check-in point for passengers, other than Athens.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, may I ask whether it is proper, when a noble Lord or a noble Baroness puts a Question to Her Majesty's Government, that, notwithstanding the day-to-day rule, the responsible Minister should say to him or her that they will receive a letter from an outside body?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, the Question asked what reply had been received, and the Answer that I was bound to give the noble Baroness is the fact that my noble friend communicated to the British Airways Board the contents of the last Question, which was on June 27. A copy of the proceedings were dispatched from the Department of Trade and Industry on June 29; they were acknowledged by the Group Managing Director of the Board on July 3; and he wrote to the noble Baroness, Lady Burton, on July 10 promising that there would be a fully reasoned reply in due course.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, will Her Majesty's Government take note of the fact that the House really is getting rather irritated at not being able to get a clear, definitive and positive answer to this question, which affects hundreds of thousands of British subjects, among them many of us?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, when these Questions have been referred to me I have tried to give the Answers as best I can, and I am bound to tell the noble Lord, Lord Byers, that it is Her Majesty's Government's view that this particular problem is one for the commercial judgment of the British Airways Board, and that it is within their purview to make this decision. That is why it has not been considered appropriate at this juncture for Her Majesty's Government to intervene.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, in that case, may I ask the noble Earl whether he will hurry up the decision by the Civil Aviation Authority, because this House is getting irritated?
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, following on the answer given by my noble friend the Minister just now, that this is a consumer matter, could he make certain that an aged lady and the mother of a family are put on the consumer board by the air authorities?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, who is put on the consumer board will be a matter for the Civil Aviation Authority.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I wonder whether I may ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House if he can help. As I understand it, he represents every one of us in this House. I think this really is quite serious; and I am not on the merits of this matter at all. For some 14 months, when the noble Lord was in Northern Ireland and not here, I have been pursuing this matter. That is why I am not enthusiastic about further letters; I have had too many. But reverting back to the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, we in this House—and this is not a Party matter; I think that is perfectly obvious; I have been helped by everybody—are getting very tired of our continued and joint representations having no effect whatsoever. If I may put this in the form of a question to the Leader of the House, is he aware that I have not the slightest doubt that the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, has done his best? This gets us exactly nowhere, and it is not the fault of the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers; that is quite clear. Is the Leader of the House aware that we regard the 1⅓ million people now using these check-in services at Gloucester Road, as the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, has said, as a matter of national interest; and may I ask the Leader of the House whether, in his capacity as Leader of the House, he would feel able to convey to the British Airways Board the fact that we feel very strongly about this? We do not want letters: we want an inquiry.
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD WINDLESHAM)My Lords, I should certainly be willing to meet the noble Baroness personally to see whether there is any way in which I can use my good offices to try to resolve this long-standing matter.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, on that, may I ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House if he would read the back of the front page of this month's issue of Which?, which sets out the matter most admirably?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I should like to meet the noble Baroness personally so that she can acquaint me of the full history.
§ LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELANDMy Lords, arising from the answer, may I ask whether all consumer councils are appointed by the authorities whom they are expected to criticise?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, that is a more general point. I can only tell the noble Lord that under the Civil Aviation Act it is the responsibility of the Civil Aviation Authority to take account of users' interests. The way they decided to do this was to set up some form of users' advisory council.
§ BARONESS STOCKSMy Lords, I have not received an answer to my straightforward supplementary question: Have Members of Her Majesty's Government ever met anybody who did not regard with horror the conditions that will prevail at Heathrow if these facilities are withdrawn?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I think I have; but I am bound to say that the weight of argument tended to be on the other side.
§ LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELANDMy Lords, may I follow up my point and ask whether I could have some written information as to whether all consumers' councils are appointed by those authorities whom they are expected to criticise?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, if I understood the noble Lord correctly, he said that he wanted a written answer. I will see that he gets one.