§ LORD COLERAINEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many people in Rhodesia have met violent death since the Unilateral Declaration of Independence; and whether they can estimate, to the nearest hundred thousand, how many have died in the same period as the result of violence in those independent States in Africa which are recognised by Her Majesty's Government.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)My Lords, we have no means of obtaining reliable information about the number of people who have met violent deaths in Rhodesia since U.D.I. Nor would it be appropriate to seek specific information from other African countries where we have no constitutional responsibility.
§ LORD COLERAINEMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether she is aware that I can hardly believe my ears? Is it not the case that Her Majesty's Government claim to be the only legal Government in Rhodesia and, as such, is it really beyond their powers to get very easily accessible information of this kind? May I ask whether, if I put down the Question again, she will get her office to telephone the Daily Telegraph, The Times, or the Guardian, or some other reputable newspaper, and get the information which her office apparently lacks? With regard to the second part of her Answer, how is it that on July 3 she was able to make an estimate, which she called a "conservative estimate", of the number of people who have been killed in Burundi of 120,000, and is unable to make comparable estimates for other countries?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, referring to the Question on the Order Paper by my 506 noble friend Lord Barnby, I was not aware that my noble friend could hardly believe his ears. In answer to the first part of his Question, he will of course be aware that we have no Mission in Rhodesia. We can make a rough estimate, but we cannot give reliable or accurate figures. In answer to the Question the other day to which he referred, I gave a rough estimate, and I said that I could not give accurate figures.
§ LORD COLERAINEMy Lords, all I was asking of the noble Baroness was to give a rough estimate to the nearest 100,000, in other cases. She was able to give a rough estimate as to 120,000 last week; I do not see why she could not have managed as to 100,000 this week.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am sure that the House, and all noble Lords, would like to have accurate information.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, since I am rather inhibited by the Answer to the previous Question by the noble Lord, the Leader of the House, may I ask the noble Baroness whether Her Majesty's Government would be assisted in their difficult tasks in the Common-wealth if the noble Lord, Lord Coleraine, would refrain from giving permanent praise to the régime which is in rebellion against the Crown, and occasionally gave credit to the social and economic progress achieved by those countries which are independent?
§ LORD COLERAINEMy Lords, before my noble friend replies, may I ask her whether she is aware that I have never praised the present Government in Rhodesia? The most I have done is to seek to make Her Majesty's Government behave in a rational manner.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am most interested in the exchanges, through me, from both sides of your Lordships' House. I would only say that it is because we are trying to get a fair and just settlement within Rhodesia that we consider that it is not to the advantage of anyone that any estimates or rough figures should be published.