§ 4.2 p.m.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like now to repeat a Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. His Statement is as follows:
"As the House will be aware, I represented the United Kingdom at the first stage of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe which took place in Helsinki from the 3rd to the 7th of July.
"Two important results were achieved. First, the final recommendations of the preparatory 'talks, which began in Helsinki last November, were unanimously approved. This means that there is an agreed basis for the work of the second stage of the Conference at which the questions of substance will be tackled. Secondly, it was agreed that this second stage should open in Geneva on the 18th of September preceded by a meeting of the Co-ordinating Committee starting 538 three weeks earlier on the 29th of August.
In Helsinki last week the representative of each participating State was able to state his country's views on questions affecting security and cooperation in Europe. A number of delegations tabled specific proposals for discussion at the second stage. In my own speech I sought to place the emphasis where I believe it belongs: on the need to change for the better the conditions of life for ordinary people in the Continent of Europe. I am putting a copy of my speech in the Library of the House, together with the proposals which I tabled and a copy of the Communiqué issued in Helsinki on the 7th of July. The Final Recommendations of the Preparatory Talks are already in the Library.
"I believe the House will welcome the fact that preparations can now go ahead for the next phase of this Conference, which could well be of such great importance, since it is at this second stage that we hope that recommendations on specific practical measures can be worked out and agreed."
§ My Lords, that is the end of my right honourable friend's Statement.
§ LORD KENNETMy Lords, the House will be grateful to the Minister of State for repeating the Statement made to the other place. Can the noble Baroness confirm that the Government will continue to link progress at the Security Conference with progress at the Mutual and Balanced Force Reductions Conference which has not yet opened, and that the former will not be allowed to reach conclusions until the latter is well advanced towards conclusions? May I say how pleased some of us are—certainly I am myself very pleased—at the crusty, septuagenarian, common sense with which Sir Alec continued to refer to them as "Mutual and Balanced Force Reduction talks" in spite of the Russian insistence that they were not to be "balanced"? Would the Government not agree that the important thing which was achieved last week was the approval of all the recommendations in the preliminary document, which is indeed a weighty affair and much better than might have been expected? That is very good. May I 539 also ask the Government whether they will watch the "culture section" very carefully from now on? It is limited to achievements, events, bodies and so on. Art, my Lords, is not usually "events and bodies"; it is a natural flow as between one human being and another, and the best thing that States can do is keep out of it.
§ 4.6 p.m.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, I should like to welcome very much indeed the progress which has been made at Helsinki. I should also like to ask the Minister one question. Is it intended to publish an agenda before the second stage of the Conference in September and, if so, when is the document likely to be published?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I should like to thank both noble Lords who have spoken and to say to the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, that there is no formal link between the Conference on M.B.F.R.s and the Helsinki Conference, but of course the political situation is such that what happens in each must be borne in mind at each. On the question of culture, it is rather a wide agenda but perhaps when he sees our own proposals he may think there is common sense attached to them, as he was good enough to say in reference to my right honourable friend's speech, for which I thank him very much. In answer to the question by the noble Lord, Lord Byers, on the publication of an actual agenda, may I say that the noble Lord will know that the final recommendations of the Helsinki consultations have already been published and are available. Once the Co-ordinating Committee has met at the end of August, I think it will then be possible to publish the agenda.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she can say what proposals Her Majesty's Government intend to place before the Conference at the second stage and whether those proposals will be indicated to Members of your Lordships' House (and presumably to those of another place) so that opinions can be expressed about them? Is the noble Baroness aware that the general comment in the Press, inclu- 540 ding almost the whole of the Western Press, is to the effect that although during the course of many speeches proposals were made particularly for the need for the Soviet Union to provide greater mobility and more freedom of movement, and so on, the Soviet Union representatives were unyielding. Can the noble Baroness say whether that assessment is correct?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the noble Lord will have heard in the Statement which I have repeated that the proposals by the United Kingdom delegation on the three main subjects before the second stage of the Conference will be placed in the Library. The first one, to which I think he is drawing particular attention, concerns questions relating to security in Europe—confidence-building measures. Perhaps he would care in particular to have a look at that. I am sorry that I forgot to make a note of his second question as he was speaking. I wonder whether he would be good enough to remind me of it.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, I referred to comments made in practically the whole of the Western Press and in particular to the propositions that the Soviet Union should be more willing to provide greater freedom of movement and greater mobility in order that people in the Soviet Union might move about as they wished. It was said that the response from the Soviet Union was unyielding. Could the noble Baroness say whether that is correct?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I regret that in concentrating on the noble Lord's first point I neglected to take a note of his second. It is perfectly true that, as was said in the Press, the second stage of this Conference is charged with preparing proposals to help freer movement. The noble Lord will find this in paragraph 45 of the final Recommendations. My right honourable friend had a private meeting with Mr. Gromyko and took the chance to draw attention to the very strong feelings held in this country about the position of certain Soviet citizens who wish to emigrate and are prevented from doing so. But I am afraid that Mr. Gromyko was not receptive.
§ LORD ORR-EWINGMy Lords, could my noble friend tell the House whether Her Majesty's Government are going to put the question of verification high on the agenda? Because there are many of us who feel that there is no point in discussing complicated arrangements for mutual balanced force reductions unless firm verification is provided on both sides.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the Conference on Mutual Balanced Force Reductions is of course a conference that is going to be held in Vienna, where the whole question of verification will be of great importance. This part that deals with security is on confidence-building measures; for example, the United Kingdom document says that:
In our view a failure to provide prior notification of movements, while providing such a notification of manoeuvres, would prejudice the opportunity to create a greater climate of confidence.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for her Statement and for her answers, may I ask her whether Her Majesty's Government recognise that this Conference at Helsinki is absolutely historic? Is it not the first occasion when there has been a meeting of representatives of all the European countries, West and East, the neutral countries, the United States of America and Canada? Is this not an extraordinary advance towards bringing some settlement of these issues? Will Her Majesty's Government seek during this second phase to overcome the difficulties, which are not unsurmountable, that still exist?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, it is an historic conference and Her Majesty's Government worked very hard to make sure that it was possible to have a practical application to the various confidence-building measures in the second stage. One has to remember, of course, that there are at least three other very important conferences on the whole question—on disarmament, on arms and everything else going on—and this is devoted to confidence-building measures, to certain commercial aspects and to the very important cultural aspects, including freedom of movement of people.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, would the noble Baroness congratulate the Foreign Secretary on his insistence about freedom of movement?—and here I support my noble friend Lord Shinwell. It is an issue which is hardly ever raised enough; it is very important and simple; and so far it has meant only shots over the Berlin Wall between East and West.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell, for her congratulations to my right honourable friend, which I will certainly convey to him. He is concerned that this Conference shall be an opportunity not just for people to make statements of principle, however good they are, but also for them to translate them into practice.
§ LORD GEORGE-BROWNMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that from here on, not only between now and the second stage but from here on for three years, the United States of America is going to be of very little use to Western Europe, and that the atmosphere is building up there for a massive pull-out from her responsibilities? Could she tell me whether her right honourable friend is taking this factor into account, and how in the second stage and thereafter we propose to energise Europe so that we can look after ourselves, however America now behaves?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, that is a rather sweeping statement by the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown. The United States is a member of this Conference, has helped with the preparatory work, and will of course be continuing with the work; and she is there because of the reality of the American defence of Europe. Whatever the internal difficulties within the United States at the present time, they nevertheless do not alter the fact that she is one of our strongest allies and so we hope she will remain.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, before the Government become caught up in technical questions of verification, would they not realise that it is very important to public opinion, not only in this country but throughout Europe, that as regards balanced force reductions they should be informed of what was, what is, and what is hoped to be achieved? Would it not 543 be excellent for Her Majesty's Government to publish, if they choose in White Paper form, the strength of our own Forces, quantitatively and qualitatively, and what they know of the strength of Forces not only in the Western bloc but in the Eastern bloc, so that for the first time we can get away from some of the fairy stories which are published annually in our Defence White Paper and come face to face with reality?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I think the noble Lord is referring to the Conference in Vienna on mutual and balanced force reductions. I am making a statement about a Conference in Helsinki on Security and Co-operation. The facts and figures that he needs are not only in the Defence White Paper but also come out during the course of the debate on that subject.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, the noble Baroness clearly answered a question from one of her noble friends—it was probably convenient to do so—on the question of verification. That prompted me to suggest that before verification is approached as an abstract subject it could in fact be tested by the realities of the present.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I think I in fact said to my noble friend that verification was a subject for discussion at Vienna, at the M.B.F.R. talks.
§ LORD KENNETMy Lords, would the noble Baroness not agree that the annual publications of the International Institute of Strategic Studies in London and the Swedish International Peace Research Institute in Stockholm give a very full account of force levels and armaments in both West and East Europe and are on the whole worthy of belief?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, a member of my family was intimately connected with the Institute of Strategic Studies, and I think I can praise their work. But I would also say that the conference which we are discussing now is not a conference designed to discuss specific amounts of arms, which is a completely different subject.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, out of deference to the noble Baroness's relative I will not comment on the document of the Institute of Strategic Studies, but if in fact we want to get somewhere near the truth then study of the defence documents issued by the United States is a much preferable source.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am sure that when we get to that subject we shall take that point into account.