SECONDARY EDUCATION IN BIRMINGHAM (Hansard, 4 July 1973)

§ BARONESS BACON
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND SCIENCE (LORD SANDFORD)
My Lords, my right honourable friend and I considered over a hundred separate proposals: 52 were approved and 60 rejected. The full reasons were set out in the official decision letters of which the noble Baroness has copies. But, to summarise, I can say that in each case we took account of the weight of local objections; we bore in mind the need to keep open existing opportunities for the children and a wide choice for their parents; we examined the disadvantages of having schools in widely separated buildings, and we considered whether the premises and staffs were adequate for their proposed role.

§ BARONESS BACON
My Lords, I do not blame the noble Lord for that Answer, but is he aware that it is a typically muddled Answer? Is he aware that parental choice is a myth and has never operated for secondary education? Can he explain how parental choice can operate when the decision whether or not a child goes to a grammar or a secondary modern school is determined by a selective test at the age of eleven? Is he further aware that if only two selective schools had been left in Birmingham, Birmingham would not have had a comprehensive scheme, in that there would have had to be a selective test for all Birmingham children just for those two schools? Is he aware that this is really in line with what Mrs. Thatcher has said all along: that she is going to allow only a certain number of comprehensive schools and will retain selection in some form in most places in the country?

§ LORD SANDFORD
My Lords, I think I made it clear from my original Answer that we did not approach this problem in any doctrinaire attitude such as the noble Baroness implies. The kind of choice she describes is not the only kind of choice which needs to be kept open for the parents. I think this is a difficult subject to discuss thoroughly and extensively in answer to a Parliamentary Question, but if the noble Baroness would like to put down an Unstarred Question, we might go into the whole matter more thoroughly.

§ LORD AVEBURY
My Lords, the Minister stated that among many factors 244 to which attention was given by the Department was the weight of local objections. Is he aware that there is tremendous opposition in Kent to the three-tier system which has been proposed by the local authority and which is a real "dog's dinner", and that many people in that part of the world are under the impression that the Government will accept schemes in accordance with their own political philosophy and reject those that are not?

§ LORD SANDFORD
My Lords, I am aware of the situation in a number of counties, but I think 112 schools in Birmingham are quite enough for one Parliamentary Question.

§ BARONESS GAITSKELL
My Lords, would it not be true to say that the right honourable lady, Mrs. Thatcher, despite all her ability, has not accepted the paramount need to-day to educate most of our children and not just some of them, and that this latest refusal to accept the Birmingham proposals is another proof of what she feels about these things?

§ LORD SANDFORD
My Lords, I do not accept that because, in fact, of these 100 or so proposals, 52 have been approved.

§ LORD GARNSWORTHY
My Lords, in connection with the attitude that has been displayed towards the Birmingham proposals for reorganisation of secondary education—and I listened very carefully to what the noble Lord said in his original reply—will he say, as simply as he can, whether he and the Secretary of State are opposed to consortia arrangements in general, or whether their opposition is in regard to the Birmingham proposals in particular; and, if the latter, could he give the reasons?

§ LORD SANDFORD
Certainly, my Lords. My right honourable friend is certainly not opposed to the principle of consortia in general, but in this particular case a system hitherto untried in Birmingham was being devised, not for two or three schools here and four or five there, but over the entire city and for each and every one of the 92 schools of the authority. On the evidence provided for my right honourable friend, she did not feel that sufficient experience and preparation had been made to be certain that this 245 system would work. But she has given approval to the proposals in two of these consortia, and she looks forward very much to seeing how the arrangements will work out in practice.

§ BARONESS BACON
My Lords, in connection with the last remarks of the noble Lord, that not sufficient consideration has been given, is it not a fact that these proposals were considered not only by the local authority but by the teachers as well, and that it was the considered opinion of the local authority and the teachers that this was a workable scheme? Is he further aware that when I was Minister I met the Birmingham Tory local authority on many occasions to try to get them to adopt a comprehensive scheme; that they always refused, and we had no power to compel them to do so? Is he not also aware that Mrs. Thatcher has said on many occasions that she believes in local authority autonomy, yet she is imposing her will on the Birmingham local authority?

§ LORD MAYBRAY-KING
My Lords, the noble Lord has said that what weighed with the Minister were local objections to the Birmingham scheme. Is he saying that he is prepared to let a minority opinion override the considered opinion of the majority of citizens of Birmingham through their local education committee?

§ LORD SANDFORD
My Lords, I said that the weight of local objections was one among a number of factors which were considered. In some cases we have taken decisions which overrode those objections. But I am sure the noble Lord will agree that when objections for which the Statute provides are received they should be weighed in the balance.

§ LORD GARNSWORTHY
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to reply Ito the questions put by my noble friend Lady Bacon, particularly in regard to the autonomy of local education authorities? At what point does the Secretary of State feel that she—and indeed at what point does the noble Lord the Minister himself feel that he—is able to make a better judgment than the local education authority? And when can local education authorities anticipate that they will be given that degree of control which has been promised them so long by this 246 Government? In fact, the opposite has been the case; they have lost power.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, the noble Lord and the House will know that the system we are operating here is that provided in Section 13 of the Education Act. It is a combination of local judgment and central Government decision.

§ BARONESS BACON
My Lords, may I have a reply to my questions?

§ LORD SANDFORD
My Lords, in all that exchange I am not quite sure which questions I have left unanswered.

§ BARONESS BACON
One was whether or not it was a fact that this scheme had been drawn up by the teachers and the local authorities. The second was the point that my noble friend has just dealt with, about local autonomy.

§ LORD SANDFORD
My Lords, I agree that the views of the teachers are also important, but there are also the governors and the parents to be considered.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, was the scheme agreed between the local authority and the teachers?

§ LORD SANDFORD
My Lords, the schemes here are schemes put forward by the Roman Catholic Diocese, the Church of England Diocese and the local education authority, and it is up to them as to what consultations they carry out.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
And they agreed?

§ LORD GARNSWORTHY
Then is the noble Lord in point of fact agreeing (he nodded in reply) that this is the case? I think we want to get this matter quite clearly on the Record. Is the noble Lord aware that there is growing discontent throughout the country at the unjustifiable decisions that are being made, and that these decisions are regarded as purely doctrinaire and opposed to the best interests of the children of the country?

§ LORD SANDFORD
My Lords, I would not agree with that. Indeed, I think the boot is on the other foot. A number of proposals are coming to us which are the result of pursuing doctrinaire policies, against the evidence of 247 all the practical local considerations on the ground.

§ LORD TREFGARNE
My Lords, while accepting the importance of the point of view of the teachers in this matter, can the noble Lord say whether the Minister, Mrs. Thatcher, is required to take their views specifically into consideration, or whether they have any special statutory position in this matter?

§ LORD SANDFORD
My Lords, as noble Lords know, the position is that the local education authority, or in some cases Church authorities, have the duty to put forward proposals under Section 13. There is a two-month period for the lodging of objections, after which it is for the Secretary of State to take a decision.

§ LORD SHACKLETON
My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord the Leader of the House would answer the second part of my question. I am getting rather worried. He told us that the Spiritual Lords had found their spiritual home there; but in view of the large numbers of noble Lords on this side and the frequent defeats the Government have sustained recently, where are his numbers to back up the Government this afternoon? Are they now having instruction in family planning in anticipation of to-morrow's proceedings?

EARL ST. ALDWYN
My Lords, this is not the first occasion on which the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition has queried the number of noble Lords sitting on these Benches at any particular time. On one occasion, at his special request the House adjourned so that noble Lords could come into the Chamber. The House reassembled, the Government speaker got up to make an important speech, and there were exactly six noble Lords on the Benches opposite.

§ LORD SHACKLETON
My Lords, if I may address my remarks again to the Leader of the House, and not to the angry Government Chief Whip, may I suggest that he might persuade his noble friend to take life a little more calmly?