HL Deb 04 July 1973 vol 344 cc237-41

2.47 p.m.

LORD TEVIOT

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what "public duties" are performed and what are "certain other expenses connected with the Order of the Garter" which are incurred by Garter Principal King of Arms in relation to the annual fee of £3,100 set out in Class XI, 6 of the Supply Estimates 1973–74.

THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS)

My Lords, Garter King of Arms receives a personal honorarium of £3,000 a year in recognition of the professional advice which he gives to the Prime Minister, the Departments of State and the House of Lords on questions of heraldry, title and procedence, and for duties in connection with certain State ceremonies. The "certain other expenses connected with the Order of the Garter"—in respect of which the sum of £100 has been included in the Estimates—relate to a contribution to the Garter Fee Fund on behalf of Stranger Knights of the Order of the Garter and do not relate to expenses incurred by Garter King of Arms.

LORD TEVIOT

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that I am extremely grateful to him for that reply and for clearing up one or two ends that were rather left in that otherwise excellent debate that we had on the Second Reading of the College of Arms Bill? And while we are on the subject, can my noble friend mention any other honorarium or fees which may be received by the College of Arms or Garter from any other Government Departments, including the Ministry of Defence?

VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS

My Lords, I shall be glad to clear this up. I know of one other honorarium which Garter receives from the Ministry of Defence. That is £400 a year from general supervisory responsibilities as Inspector General of Regimental Colours. Additional fee payments are made for individual items of service—designing and painting crests, badges and standards. I think those are not within the £400 a year.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I wonder whether I may intervene to ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House a question. There seems to be a great abundance of Spiritual Peers here today and a great shortage of Temporal Peers on that side of the House. Can he tell us whether there is something that we on this side are missing?

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD WINDLESHAM)

My Lords, I thought some of the Bishops had found their spiritual home on our Benches earlier.

LORD WIGG

My Lords, dealing with the previous Question, will the Minister be good enough to clear up a further matter? Will he now establish beyond any shadow of doubt that the grant given from public money to Garter King of Arms is chargeable to the public and is therefore borne on the Vote of some Minister who is accountable both to another place and to this place for its expenditure?

VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS

My Lords, I have given the details. The first collection of items that I mentioned I think come under the jurisdiction of my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal in his capacity as Civil Service Department Minister. The Ministry of Defence obviously comes under a separate Vote. Then I mentioned the purely private arrangement of a very small annual fee which is nothing to do with the Government at all but comes under the Earl Marshal.

LORD BLYTON

My Lords, may I ask the Minister to see that the Government will take good care that the Garter King of Arms does not become a recipient of the National Assistance Board?

VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS

My Lords, I thought there were certain suspicions about this, one way or the other, in the debate the other day but I can reassure the House that the balance is fairly evenly kept.

LORD WIGG

The Minister is establishing beyond any shadow of doubt there is direct Ministerial responsibility for this money?

VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS

My Lords, I hesitate to enter into what happens in another place. I am sure the noble Lord knows, better than I do, that anything that appears on a Vote can always be raised by a Member in another place.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, the noble Lord is replying for the Government and the question is simply: is this matter borne on a Parliamentary Vote and has to be and is subject to being questioned or voted against in another place? I think the noble Lord must give us—he is too experienced to take the point about giving a straight "Yes" or "No", but may I ask him whether he does not agree that this question is susceptible of an answer either, "Yes" or "No"?

VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS

My Lords, I think it is, and so far as I know, the answer is, "Yes". I am simply saying that I am not personally familiar with all the procedures in another place but it does appear on the Vote and one of the references is that given by my noble friend Lord Teviot in his Question.

LORD GARDINER

My Lords can the noble Lord tell us what happens to the fees for attending the Introductions of Peers when Garter does not come?

VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS

My Lords, I imagine this is an internal matter as we have just seen that there are occasions, but I imagine that he manages to reach an amicable agreement with his colleagues.

LORD WIGG

My Lords, does it appear as an Appropriation in Aid?

VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS

My Lords, that is a mystery I cannot answer. If the noble Lord will be good enough to put down a Question, I can look into it.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, it seems to me that all the information that Garter King of Arms has to impart is of a mediaeval character. Is he compelled to acquire any information which is of a modern character?

VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS

Yes, my Lords, I can give the House a considerable modern example. At present the reorganisation of local government has resulted in an enormous amount of work which Garter King of Arms is doing for the Department of the Environment in relation to the new coats of arms and crests for the new local authorities.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, who pays the Garter in that particular case, the Department of the Environment or local government? What sort of fee does he receive for it?

VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS

My Lords, I have no break-downs of these figures because this work is covered by the general honorarium that I mentioned in the first place. There would not be any extra payment for this work.

LORD GARNSWORTHY

My Lords, is it not a fact that the local authorities each and every one of them, will have to pay a fee for a Garter Coat of Arms?

VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS

Yes, my Lords, but that is a separate issue. The honorarium I have been talking about is one which pays for the provision of services to the Department of the Environment. The individual local authorities are a different matter, and have their own relationship with Garter.

LORD MAYBRAY-KING

My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that some of us appreciate highly the work of a very small and economically run Department under the Garter King of Arms?

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Hear, hear!

VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I am grateful for that remark, but feel sure the Garter King of Arms will be even more grateful than I am.