§ 8.5 p.m.
§ Report stage resumed.
§ Schedule 2 [Boundaries of water authority areas and area and main river maps]:
§ LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 34:
§
Page 48, line 30, after ("consist") insert ("of the following maps, in so far as not replaced by maps sent to water authorities under paragraph 9 below:—
(a) in the case of the areas which immediately before that date consisted of the Thames
121
Catchment Area and the Lee Catchment Area,").
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 34, and to speak at the same time to Amendments Nos. 35 and 36. These are purely drafting Amendments to clarify the existing text, the substance of which remains unaltered.
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 35.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 33, at beginning insert ("in the case of other areas").—(Lord Sandford.)
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 36.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 36, leave out ("(c) of") and insert ("and in either case, shall also consist of any").—(Lord Sandford.)
§ Schedule 3 [Administration, finance, etc., of water authorities and the National Water Council]:
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, on behalf of my noble friend I beg to move Amendment No. 37, which we discussed when Amendment No. 30 was moved.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 55, line 4, leave out paragraph 13.—(Lord Sandford.)
§ LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 37A:
§
Page 55, line 10, at end insert—
("13A. Without prejudice to paragraph 2 above, a water authority may—
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 37A. The purpose of this Amendment is to remove any doubt that there might be about 122 the powers of water authorities to provide housing for their employees and their retired employees. A number of employees of water undertakings have had their houses provided for them because, in the nature of the job, it has been necessary for employees to be housed in rather out of the way and remote areas, and there is no intention that the powers that have been used to do this should lapse or in any way be diminished by the passage of this Bill. The matter is safeguarded in this Amendment.
§ 8.8 p.m.
§ LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 38:
§
Page 55, line 26, at end insert—
("14A.—(1) Subject to the following provisions of this paragraph, a person nominated by one or more local authorities may act as deputy for a member of a water authority appointed by that local authority or those local authorities and may accordingly (instead of the member) attend and vote at a meeting of the water authorities or any committees or subcommittees to which the member for whom he is a deputy belongs.
(2) A person acting as deputy for a member of a water authority shall be treated for the purposes for which he is nominated as a member of that authority.
(3) A person shall not act as deputy for a member of a water authority unless his nomination has been notified to an officer of the authority appointed to receive such nominations.
(4) A nomination shall be in writing and may apply either to a particular meeting or to all meetings during a stated period or until the nomination is revoked.
(5) A person shall not act as deputy for more than one member of a water authority.
(6) The reference to committees and sub-committees in this paragraph does not include a reference to regional or local land drainage committees.")
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 38, which, together with Amendment No. 43, to which I should like to speak at the same time if it is convenient to the House, fulfils another undertaking which I gave to my noble friend Lord Ridley and to my noble friend Lord Amory on the position about which they were rather anxious, that a bare majority of a local authority's members would not really serve to meet their purposes. The main point I made in answer to that was that I 123 did not think that we should regard the water authorities as being made up of two opposing camps of appointed members and elected members, but that in so far as there was some valid reason for having a bare majority of local authority members, that could be safeguarded if it was open to the local authorities to appoint deputies or substitutes. This undertaking is met in Amendment No. 38 and Amendment No. 43.
§ My noble friend Lord Amory has asked me to apologise to the House for not being able to be present when this Amendment was moved, but he has authorised me to say that he is grateful for what the Government are doing, and he wanted me to say that it goes quite a long way to meeting his misgivings, though it is not precisely what he would have liked or what he asked for originally. I hope that with that commendation the House will be prepared to accept these two Amendments.
§ BARONESS WHITEMy Lords, we sympathise with the objectives of this Amendment, although, as I have made clear at earlier stages of our deliberations, I am sceptical as to the validity of the principle of a majority of local authority members, because I do not regard it as being genuinely democratic. On the other hand, one can see that a local authority may wish to make certain that its views are conveyed to the appropriate meetings, and that therefore provision for deputies is not unreasonable. So on that basis, rather than on the question of the majority, we should be disposed to go along with this Amendment.
On a small matter of detail, I should like to ask the Minister about subsection (5) of this Amendment which I think is repeated in Amendment No. 43 mutatis nuttandis. It states that
A person shall not act as deputy for more than one member of a water authority.One assumes that that means at any one moment of time, because one can foresee occasions when the same person might be nominated as a deputy for more than one person at successive meetings. I should have thought that, as a matter of careful draftsmanship, it might be better to make the position absolutely clear. Just occasionally difficulties may arise in situations of this sort, when one has rather 124 frustrating arguments or squabbles. I am not quite sure whether it might be better to make it perfectly plain that these words are intended to mean that one cannot simultaneously represent more than one other person, although there may be occasions—possibly at successive meetings—when the same deputy might be deputising for different persons.
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, I think that I can give the noble Baroness the assurance for which she has asked on that point, because the procedure would be that they were nominated in writing to an appropriate officer of a water authority. The nomination might apply to a particular meeting, or to all meetings during a stated period, or until it was revoked. But certainly, in the light of all that the noble Baroness has said, we shall look at the wording again to make sure that it meets the point.
§ Schedule 4 [Land drainage]:
§ 8.12 p.m.
§
EARL FERRERS moved Amendment No. 39:
Page 66, line 21, leave out sub-paragraph (3).
§ The noble Earl said: My Lords, perhaps with this Amendment we may also consider Amendment No. 42. The purpose of these Amendments is to allow local authorities, when considering their appointments to local land drainage committees, to consider either members of the appointing council or other people. Latitude is already provided in the Bill for local authority appointments to water authorities and regional land drainage committees. We think it fair and consistent that this latitude should be extended to local land drainage committees. My Lords, I beg to move.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, Amendments Nos. 40 and 41 are linked. They are clarifying Amendments, in order to make it quite clear that the appointment of members to a local land drainage committee by local authorities will be made in accordance with, and subject to, the scheme which establishes the local land drainage committee, and which in turn has to be approved by the Minister. My Lords, I beg to move.
§
Amendments moved—
Page 68, line 23, leave out ("by") and insert ("in accordance with and subject to the terms of the local land drainage scheme, by or on behalf of")
Page 68, line 33, after ("by") insert ("or on behalf of").—(Earl Ferrers.)
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 69, line 11, at end insert—
("(3A) Section 3(12) of this Act shall apply in relation to members of a regional or local land drainage committee appointed by or on behalf of a constituent council or constituent councils as it applies in relation to members of a water authority appointed by a local authority or authorities.")—(Earl Ferrers.)
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 70, line 8, at end insert—
("8A.—(1) Subject to the following provisions of this paragraph, a person nominated by one or more constituent councils may act as deputy for a member of a regional or local land drainage committee appointed by or on behalf of that council or those councils and may accordingly (instead of that member) attend and vote at a meeting of the committee.
(2) A person nominated under sub-paragraph (1) above as deputy for a member of a regional land drainage committee may by virtue of that nomination attend and vote at a meeting of a sub-committee of that committee (other than a meeting of a local land drainage committee) to which the member for whom he is a deputy belongs.
(3) A person nominated under sub-paragraph (1) above as deputy for a member of a local land drainage committee may attend and vote at a meeting of a sub-committee of that committee to which the member for whom he is a deputy belongs.
(4) A person acting as deputy for a member of a regional or local land drainage committee shall be treated for the purposes for which he is nominated as a member of that committee.
(5) A person shall not act as deputy for a member of a regional or local land drainage committee unless his nomination has been notified to an officer of the water authority appointed to receive such nominations.
(6) A nomination shall be in writing and may apply either to a particular meeting or to all meetings during a stated period or until the nomination is revoked.
126
(7) A person shall not act as deputy for more than one member of a regional or local land drainage committee.")—(Earl Ferrers.)
§ Schedule 5 [Consequential, transitional and supplementary provisions]:
§
BARONESS YOUNG moved Amendment No. 44:
Page 79, line 6, leave out ("the Water Supply Industry Training Board").
§ The noble Baroness said: In moving this Amendment, I should like to speak to Amendments Nos. 45, 46 and 47. These Amendments are all drafting. Amendment No. 47 adds the Water Supply Industry Training Board to the definition of the term "transferor body". My Lords, I beg to move.
§ BARONESS WHITEMy Lords, I appreciate that we are trying to get through this stage as quickly as possible, but I wonder whether the noble Baroness could be a little more helpful to us. What exactly happens to the Water Supply Industry Training Board under these Amendments? What is its status or standing, if any?—because we are not entirely clear as to the purpose of these Amendments. It would be very helpful if the noble Baroness could indicate the substance of the Amendments.
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I shall try to explain further what these Amendments mean. The practical effect is that the Water Supply Industry Training Board will come within the scope of paragraph 3(a) of Schedule 5, or that, for example, anything done by the Board before April 1, 1974, will thereafter be treated as having been done by the National Water Council, subject to any express provisions to the contrary, as provided for in subsection (5) of Section 254 of the Local Government Act 1972. The staff of the Board will come within the provisions of Section 259 (compensation for loss of office) and Section 260 (early retirement in lieu of compensation for loss of office). The object of the Amendments is to ensure that all appropriate matters relating to the Board are properly covered, given that the Board itself is to be abolished by the Bill.
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I beg to move Amendments Nos. 45 and 46.
§
Amendments moved—
Page 80, line 1, leave out ("and the Water Supply Industry Training Board").
Page 80, line 16, leave out ("the Water Supply Industry Training Board").—(Baroness Young.)
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 47.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 80, line 29, after ("corporation") insert ("the Water Supply Industry Training Board"). —(Baroness Young.)
§ Schedule 7 [Minor and consequential amendments, etc.]:
§ 8.17 p.m.
§
BARONESS YOUNG moved Amendment No. 48:
Page 86, line 40, leave out ("third") and insert ("fourth").
§ The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 48. This is a drafting Amendment to delete words accidentally retained in Section 39(1) of the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1923. My Lords, I beg to move.
§ BARONESS WHITEMy Lords, does this mean that these words have been in the Act since 1923 and that we are now taking them out?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I am not quite sure that that is the exact meaning, but the intention is that water authorities should be able to apply for Orders under Section 39(1) and this Amendment enables them to do that.
§
BARONESS YOUNG moved Amendment No. 49:
Page 91, line 20, leave out from ("sewers") to end of line 23 and insert ("belonging to a road maintained by a highway authority").
§ The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this Amendment corrects an omission in the new definition of the term "public sewer" which is contained in paragraph 33 of Schedule 7. My Lords, I beg to move.
§ BARONESS YOUNG moved Amendment No. 50:
§
Page 91, line 43, at end insert—
("35A.—(1) Notwithstanding the repeal by this Act of section 37 of the London Government
128
Act 1963 (which applied certain provisions of the Public Health Act 1936 to Greater London and the sewerage area of the Greater London Council)—
(2) In the said provisions in their application to a London borough or the City of London references to a local authority shall be construed as references to the borough council or the Common Council of the City, as the case may be, except that references in section 41 of the said Act of 1936 to a local authority shall, in relation to a private sewer or a cesspool or other receptable for drainage be construed as a reference to the council of the London borough in which the sewer, cesspool or other receptacle is situated or, if it is situated in the City of London the Common Council of the City.
(3) At the end of section 32 of the said Act of 1936 there shall be added the following subsection:—
(4) The council of every inner London borough and the Common Council of the City of London shall supply a copy of the said map to the Greater London Council.
35B.—(1) Where a person proposes under section 34 of that Act (right of owners and occupiers to drain into public sewers) to make a communication between a drain or sewer and a main sewer in Greater London, the grounds on which the local authority may refuse under subsection (3) of that section to permit the communication shall be such grounds as they think fit and no application to a magistrate's court may be made under the proviso of that subsection in respect of any such refusal by the water authority.
(2) In this paragraph "main sewer "means a public sewer used for the general reception of sewage from other public sewers and not substantially used for the reception of sewage from private sewers and drains.")
§ The noble Baroness said: My Lords, with this Amendment I should like to take Amendment No. 77. These Amendments are designed to ensure that the necessary modifications are made in the London Government Act 1963, to take into account the setting up of water authorities and the transfer to them of the responsibility for sewerage and sewage disposal. I beg to move.
129§ BARONESS YOUNG moved Amendment No. 51:
§
Page 93, leave out lines 5 to 11 and insert—
("44A. For subsections (1) and (2) of section 10 of the Water Act 1945 (variation of limits of supply) there shall be substituted the following subsections:—
(1) Subject to section 10(7) of the Water Act 1973 (which relates to the boundaries of water authority areas), the Secretary of State may—
(2) Subject to section 10(7) of the Water Act 1973, where it appears to the Secretary of State that it is expedient to vary the limits of supply of any statutory water undertakers and he is satisfied that such variation cannot be secured under the last foregoing subsection, the Secretary of State may make an order providing compulsorily for such variation.
44B.—(1) In the second paragraph of subsection (10) of section 14 of that Act (control of abstraction and prevention of waste) for the words from "application" to "take" there shall be substituted the words "application of the water authority within whose area the well, borehole or other work is situated, authorise them to take".
(2) In subsection (12) of that section—
44C. In the proviso to section 15(1) of that Act (agreements as to drainage etc.) for the words from "otherwise" to the end of the subsection there shall be substituted the words "into a watercourse otherwise than through public sewers, the undertakers shall before entering into the agreement—
§ The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 51 and to take with it Amendments Nos. 52, 55, 56, 57, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73 and 130 80. This is a very large number of Amendments to take all at once, but I understand that they make consequential modifications in Schedule 7, and repeals in Schedule 8 in the water supply legislation in order to take account of the transfer of functions from local authorities to water authorities. They cover the financial provisions in Part III of the present Bill, the disappearance of river authorities, who were the successors to the catchment boards, fisheries boards, the Rivers Board and river boards mentioned at various points in earlier legislation. I beg to move Amendment No. 51.
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 52.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 93, line 14, at end insert—
("46A. In paragraph (a) of the proviso to section 22(2) of that Act (acquisition of land and execution of works) for the words from "watercourse" to the end of the paragraph there shall be substituted the words" watercourse—
46B. In section 34 of that Act (temporary discharge of water into watercourse)—
§
BARONESS YOUNG moved Amendment No. 53:
Page 93, line 16, leave out from ("for") to ("Schedule") and insert ("amending and modifying sections 36 to 38 of that Act (obligation to supply water and recovery of water rates) and for adapting references in").
§ The noble Baroness said: I beg to move Amendment No. 53 and to take with it Amendment No. 54. The first Amendment paves the way for the second, and the purpose of the Amendment is to empower water companies to 131 collect charges for regional water authorities. It is concerned simply with the mechanics of the system and is not introducing any new principle. I beg to move.
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 54.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 93, leave out lines 18 to 22 and insert—
("(2) Subject to the following provisions of this paragraph
(2A) Without prejudice to the power of a statutory water company to act as agent for a water authority apart from this sub-paragraph, a statutory water company who are supplying water on behalf of a water authority may recover on behalf of the authority any charge payable under Part III of this Act for services provided by the authority within the company's limits of supply and exercise on behalf of the authority any other powers of the authority under section 38, and references in that section to the undertakers shall be construed accordingly.")—(Baroness Young.)
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 93, line 43, at end insert—
("48A. In section 55(1)(c) of that Act (authentication of documents) for the words "not being a local" there shall be substituted the words "other than a water".").—(Baroness Young.)
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 93, line 45, leave out from ("of") to end of line 47 and insert (""watercourse" for the words "joint board of local authorities" there shall be substituted the words "water authority".").—(Baroness Young.)
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 57.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 94, line 4, at end insert—
("50A. In paragraph 3 of that Schedule, for sub-paragraphs (ii) and (iii) there shall be substituted the following sub-paragraphs:—
(ii) on any water authority exercising functions in the area affected by the Order; and
(iii) where it is proposed that the order shall authorise the execution of works, on any navigation authority exercising functions in relation to a watercourse affected by the works proposed to be executed.
50B. In paragraph 12 of that Schedule—
(a) for sub-paragraph (ii) there shall be substituted the following sub-paragraph:—
(ii) on any water authority exercising functions in the area affected by the order; and";
(b) in sub-paragraph (iii) after the word "undertakers" there shall be inserted the words not being a water authority";
(c) for sub-paragraphs (iv) and (v) there shall be substituted the following sub-paragraph:—
(iv) where it is proposed that the order shall authorise the execution of works, on any navigation authority exercising functions in relation to a watercourse affected by the works proposed to be executed.
50C. In section 1(1) (interpretation) of Schedule 3 to that Act (procedural provisions), in the definition of "watercourse" for the words "joint board of local authorities" there shall be substituted the words "water authority".").—(Baroness Young.)
§ 8.25 p.m.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEK moved Amendment No. 57A:
§
Page 94, line 4, at end insert—
("51. In paragraph (a) of section 40 the words from at or before "to the end of the paragraph shall be omitted").
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, I apologise for detaining the House for a moment. This is more or less a point of clarification and I am sure the noble Baroness will be able to help me. As I said previously when I moved a number of Amendments en bloc, this Schedule contains a number of amendments to the Water Act 1945 and other enactments. The 1945 Act provides for charging water rates, but as these will now be repealed no further modifications are necessary except to Section 40, to which this Amendment refers. The proposed modification of that section is based on the provisions in the Mid-Northamptonshire Water Board Order 1948, which provided for water for domestic purposes to 133 be met by precepts and not water rates. That is the only precedent for enabling a water undertaker to raise money solely by precept for these purposes. It was proposed in the case of the Isle of Wight in 1964 but the proposals were not allowed.
§ The point I should like to put to the noble Baroness is this. I think that this Amendment may be necessary in any event, and has possibly been overlooked by the Government, as under the Bill there will be no water rate but a charge. The reference in paragraph 48 of Schedule 3 to the Water Act 1945 therefore does not seem appropriate. If the noble Baroness has not the answer at her fingertips, I shall not be cantankerous if she will drop me a note on that moot point and will let me know whether I am right or wrong. I beg to move.
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I think that at this stage I should be glad to accept the offer of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, to write to him about this point. I am almost certain it is covered by the Bill but I should not like to give a categorical assurance, and if I may write to him on this matter I will do so.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, I thank the noble Baroness and beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 58, which is consequential.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 94, line 45, at end insert—
§ ("Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1953
§
55A. For section 12 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1953 (application of provisions of Schedule 3 to the Water Act 1945 to the water undertakings of local authorities) there shall be substituted the following section:—
Water undertakings of water authorities.
§ 12.—(1) Section 64 of Schedule 3 to the Water Act 1945 (waste of water by non-repair of water fittings) shall have effect, in its application to the undertaking of a water authority, as set out with modifications in the Schedule to this Act.
§ (2) Notwithstanding anything in section 41(3) of the said Schedule 3 (recovery from owners or occupiers of expenses incurred by the undertakers in laying communication pipes) as it applies in relation to the water 134 undertaking of a water authority, or in any corresponding provision of a local enactment within the meaning of the Water Act 1945 relating to the supply of water by a water authority, that authority may, if they think fit, themselves bear the whole or any part of any expenses recoverable by them under that subsection or the corresponding provision."").—(Baroness Young.)
§
BARONESS YOUNG moved Amendment No. 59:
Page 95, line 5, leave out ("National") and insert ("Natural").
§ The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 59. I believe this was a typing error and, as my note says, a "natural" mistake. I beg to move.
§ BARONESS YOUNG moved Amendment No. 60:
§
Page 98, line 19, at end insert—
("71A.—(1) The following provisions of this paragraph shall have effect with respect to section 82 of that Act (transfer of functions or property of other authorities) and orders under that section.
(2) In section 82 references to a navigation authority, conservancy authority and harbour authority shall each include references to a body which no longer has any members but which, if it had members, would be such an authority.
(3) The Minister shall not be under any duty under paragraph 1 of Schedule 10 to that Act to consult or consider representations from any body from which functions or property are proposed to be transferred by an order under section 82 if the body no longer has any members.
(4) Where an application is made to the Ministers to make an order under section 82 transferring functions or property from a body which no longer has any members, the Ministers need not cause any such notice as is mentioned in paragraph 2 of Schedule 10 to that Act to be served on that body.
71B. In section 120 of that Act (service of documents), in subsections (1) and (5), after the words ("this Act") there shall be inserted the words ("or the Water Act 1973").")
§ The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 60, which follows from an undertaking given by my noble friend Lord Sandford at the Committee stage in a debate on an Amendment by the noble Lord, Lord De Ramsey. It permits the Secretary of State to make an order under Section 82 of the Water Resources Act 1963 transferring to a water authority the functions and property of a harbour or navigation authority notwithstanding the fact that 135 the harbour or navigation authority has become inoperative because it has no remaining members or power to create new members. This Amendment, I hope, meets his point. It is a small advance on what was said before, because in general the principle in this Bill has been that we were transferring powers and not increasing them. But we are making an exception in this particular case and I hope it meets the point which the noble Lord raised at Committee stage. I beg to move.
§ BARONESS WHITEMy Lords, as there are no Liberals here at present, perhaps on their behalf I could thank the noble Baroness. This provision seems sensible because, after all, if there were no members left and no means of appointing new ones one would be in a state of complete and utter deadlock unless this Amendment was made, and it seems very desirable that it should be.
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 61, and to speak to Amendment No. 79. Both are consequential.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 98, line 25, leave out paragraph 73 and insert—
("73. In section 135(3) of that Act (definition of "local authority sewer") for the words from ("a sewerage authority") to the end of paragraph (b) there shall be substituted the words ("any of the following, that is to say—
(a) a water authority;
§ Page 102, line 53, leave out ("4") and insert ("5")
§ Page 103, line 12, column 3, leave out ("and")
§ Page 103, line 16, column 3, at end insert—
| ("and subsection (8). | |
| Section 15(3). | |
| In section 19, subsection (6)(b) and the word "and" immediately preceding it and subsection (7). | |
| In section 23(1), paragraph (ii) of the proviso, and the words from "A consent required "to the end of the subsection. | |
| In section 24(4), the words "local authority or".") |
§ Page 103, line 17, column 3, at end insert—
| ("In section 32, in subsection (1) the words "or section forty", in subsection (2) the words "supplying water under a local enactment" and the proviso and subsections (4) and (5). | |
| Section 33(3). | |
| In section 34, in subsection (2) the words "board or "and in subsection (4) the word "boards".") |
§ Page 103, line 23, column 3, at end insert—
| ("In section 46, the words from "or", in the third place where it occurs, to the end. | |
| In section 55(1)(a)(ii) the words "the water engineer or manager of the water department or".") |
§ (b) a local authority").").—(Baroness Young.)
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 62 which is a drafting Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 100, line 46, leave out ("under the Water Act 1973") and insert ("by a water authority").—(Baroness Young.)
§ Schedule 8 [Repeals]:
§ 8.31 p.m.
§
BARONESS YOUNG moved Amendment No. 63:
Page 102, line 31, at end insert ("In section 41(1), the words from the beginning to "this Act"")
§ The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 63 which modifies the words of Section 41 of the Public Health Act 1936, that is: notice to be given of intention to repair, construct or alter underground drains, in order to reflect the fact that as a result of the Local Government Act 1972, it will now apply throughout England and Wales and not merely to urban districts and certain specified rural areas.
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I have already spoken to Amendments Nos. 64 to 73 inclusive and with the leave of the House I would move them en bloc.
§ Amendments moved—
137§ Page 103, line 25, column 3, leave out (""joint water board"") and insert—
| (""catchment board" and "catchment area", "fishery board" and "fishery district "and "joint water board", in the definition of "limits of supply" the words from "so" to the end of the definition, and the definition of "rivers board"") |
§ Page103, line 28, column 3, leave out from ("1") to ("and") in line 31 and insert—
| ("in paragraph 16, the words "board or"." ) |
§ Page103, line 32, column 3, at end insert—
| ("In Schedule 2, in paragraphs 3, 5, 6 and 7 the words "local authority or "wherever occurring.") |
§ Page 103, line 33, column 3, leave out from ("3") to end of line 35 and insert—
| ("In section 1(1) the definitions of "catchment board "and" "catchment area", "fishery board" and "fishery district" and "rivers board", section 46(1), sections 47 to 51, and in section 78, paragraphs (a) to (c) of subsection (1), and subsection (2).") |
§ Page 104, line 17, at end insert—
| ("6 & 7 Eliz. 2. c. 67 | The Water Act 1958. | Section 4(2)."). |
| —(Baroness Young.) |
§ BARONESS YOUNG moved Amendment No. 74:
§ Page 104, line 19, at end insert—
| ("8 & 9 Eliz. 2. c. 54. | The Clean River (Estuaries and Tidal Waters) Act 1960. | Section 1(6)(c).") |
§ The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 74 and to speak to Amendment No. 76. The first Amendment repeals Section 1(6)(c) of the Clean Rivers (Estuaries and Tidal Waters) Act, 1960, and the second repeals
§ Page 104, line 31, at end insert—
| ("9 & 10 [...]Eliz. 2. c.50. | River (Prevention of Pollution) Act 1961. | Section 12.") |
§ The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I should explain that this is really a warning shot for possible future legislation rather than an intention substantially to amend this Bill. In discussions with various scientific friends who are concerned with the whole question of the cleanliness of our rivers my attention was drawn to the Second Report of the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution in which reference is made to Section 12 of the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) Act, 1961, in paragraph 4 and succeeding paragraphs.
§ The point here is that those concerned with research into these matters find extremely irksome the provisions in the Act of 1961 regarding confidentiality of information concerning industrial effluents which now prevail. In their Second Report, the Royal Commission pointed out that while in 1961 there seems to 138 certain words in Section 13(2) of the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) Act, 1961.
§ BARONESS WHITE moved Amendment No. 75:
§
have been a valid reason for insisting on this confidentiality, in their view the situation has to a large extent changed. They say in Paragraph 6:
As a rule the legislation which protects secrecy over industrial effluent and waste no longer safeguards genuine trade secrets.
They go on to say in succeeding paragraphs:
It is in the public interest that information about waste should be available not only to the statutory bodies which have a right to demand it but to research workers and others who can make use of it to improve the environment. Unless adequate information is available about these discharges it is impossible to say whether or not they constitute an ecological hazard. The waters into which these pollutants are discharged are public property and interest in the nature and quantity of these pollutants is entirely justified.
I have great sympathy with those who raised this point with me, and particularly because in the Third Report of the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution
139
in Paragraph 24(b) it appears as though they are weakening in their resolve that this matter of excessive confidentiality and secrecy should be amended.
§ I chose this opportunity to raise the matter on this part of the Bill in order, if we are going to have legislation on pollution—which, we hope, may be in the next Session of Parliament; for we are not considering it in this Bill, urgent as it is—the Department should take note of the fact that we are concerned about the cleanliness of rivers and inland waterways. The work of scientific research is also affected. Although I do not expect to have any substantial answer from the noble Baroness to-night, it seems to me that it would be opportune in a sense to give notice that we shall certainly wish to take this matter up in greater detail when we have the chance to consider the other side of this Bill, namely, the effect of pollution on the waterways, the organisation of which we are now reforming.
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, we recognise that the noble Baroness, Lady White, has raised a very important point in this matter. I am glad that she said it is really a probing Amendment to see whether we can give any more information about the Government intention on this particular issue. I can confirm that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has announced that it is his hope to introduce during the lifetime of this Parliament a Bill to improve recent measures for the protection of the environment, and among the provisions would clearly be something on the lines of the Amendment that the noble Baroness has given us this evening. I understand that this is in fact a very complex matter and that there would be considerable difficulty on this particular issue of the disposal of information.
§ The Amendment of the noble Baroness would enable the water authority officers to disclose any information they may obtain in connection with an application
§ Page 104, line 31, at end insert—
| ("9 & 10 Eliz. 2. c.50 | The Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) Act 1961. | In section 13(2), the words form "and in sub-paragraph (2)"onwards.") |
| —(Baroness Young.) |
§ Amendment moved—
140§ to discharge. It will sometimes be to the advantage of a water authority in their efforts to protect their rivers to be given a great deal more information than the would-be discharger would be obliged to give; therefore, a frank discussion of the processes used in a factory and of the problems which they might cause might enable the water authority's officers to suggest ways and means of overcoming particular difficulties or of building in better safeguards. There are some, if only a few, cases where the publication of particular information could result in serious detriment to the discharger for commercial reasons or could even harm national security.
§ These are all matters not strictly relevant to this Bill, as I am sure the noble Baroness will recognise. This Bill is concerned with organisation. The powers of water authorities are only concerned in so far as they must be modified or altered as a consequence of this reorganisation. I hope that I have said enough to assure the noble Baroness that it is the Government's intention to legislate on this matter, and I hope that as a result of this assurance she will feel able to withdraw her Amendment.
§ BARONESS WHITEMy Lords, I am greatly obliged. I understand this is a complex matter. On the other hand, I was concerned that the Third Report seemed to be far less firm than the Second, and I thought it only fair to give advance notice that we are concerned about this matter and would wish to encourage the Government and their advisers to apply their minds to something which is complex but important and of considerable public interest. Having had that reassuring reply from the noble Baroness, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 76:
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 104, leave out line 38 and insert:
("In Schedule 9, Part I; in Part II, paragraphs 1 to 4. 7 to 10, 12 to 16 and 19: in Part III, paragraphs 4(3), 5, 7, 8 and 10 to 12. Schedule 10.")—(Baroness Young.)
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move Amendment No. 78:
§
Amendment moved—
Page 105, line 33, at end insert ("Section 69(2)")—(Baroness Young.)
§ Page 106, line 33, at end insert—
| ("1965 c. 56.) | The Compulsory Purchase Act 1965. | In section 33(1)(b) the words from "that", in the second place where it occurs, to the end of the paragraph, in subsection (2)(b) the words "a local authority within the meaning of the Act of 1946, or " and in subsection (4) the words "a local authority within the meaning of the Act of 1946 or".") |
| —(Baroness Young.) |
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move Amendment No. 81:
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 107, line 18, column 3, at end insert
("in the second place where it occurs"). — (Baroness Young.)