§ 3.47 p.m.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, with the leave of the House, and if it is convenient, I should like now to repeat a Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. It concerns the main matters considered in the Council of the European Communities since last reported to the House on May 23. The Statement is as follows:
"There have been in all five meetings of the Council—two of Foreign Ministers, two of Agricultural Ministers, and one of Finance Ministers.
"A meeting of Transport Ministers planned for June 25–26 was cancelled.
"The Council has made further progress in the work arising from the decisions of the European Summit Conference of October 1972.
"At the meeting of Foreign Ministers on June 25–26 agreement was reached on a document setting out an overall Community approach to forthcoming multilateral trade negotiations under the GATT.
"The Foreign Ministers also made substantial progress towards agreement on the Community's approach to negotiations with Spain, Israel, and the Maghreb in the context of the Community's policy towards the countries of the Mediterranean following decisions taken by the Agricultural Ministers on June 18–19 on the possible agricultural content of such a policy.
"The Council has discussed further the Community's future relations with the developing countries of the Commonwealth and countries already associated with the Community under the Arusha and Yaounde Conventions.
"These developing, countries have been invited to an opening conference on July 25–26 at which the Community will give a broad outline of its proposals on the form of a new Association Agreement.
"These proposals will be subject to further discussion in the Council in July on the basis of ideas put forward by the Commission.
32 "The Council has continued its consideration of a Community policy on development co-operation on a worldwide scale.
"The Council has agreed that the provisional location of the European Monetary Co-operation Fund shall be in Luxembourg subject to certain conditions including a review by June 30, 1975.
"The Community Finance Ministers meeting on June 28 discussed the current economic situation and the continuing need for action on a Community scale against inflation.
"They agreed that this was the most serious economic problem facing the Community and adopted a resolution setting out the determination of all Member Countries to pursue policies aimed at slowing down the rate of increases of prices.
"The Finance Ministers also discussed a Report by the Commission on the second stage of Economic and Monetary Union which is due to come into effect on January 1, 1974.
"The Council reaffirmed the Communities' commitment to this move and agreed that there should be further detailed technical study of the Commission's proposals for the second stage preparatory to the subject being considered again in the Council later in the year.
"The Commission also gave a brief oral account of its reports on reserve pooling and short-term monetary management. These will be discussed at the next meeting.
"I now turn to Article 154 of the Treaty of Accession.
"As the House knows, under this Article the Commission was required to supplement by July 1 its Communication of June 23, 1971, dealing with central and peripheral areas in a manner which took account of the enlargement of the Community and placed all the Member States in the same position over the arrangements for co-ordination of regional aids in the Community.
"At its meeting on June 27, the Commission reached an agreement for this purpose.
33 "The effect is that the central areas of the United Kingdom have been defined as our non-assisted areas and our Intermediate areas.
"The precise classification of the remaining areas of the United Kingdom has been held in abeyance, pending a major Community-wide review to be carried out in this field by the Commission.
"Their aim is to determine by December 31, 1974, a more complete and detailed system than that communicated in 1971.
"This would take account of the variety of different regional problems of the enlarged Community.
"Such an intention is wholly welcome to us, as contributing in a more sophisticated way to the restraint of excessive bidding and counter-bidding between Member States and even regions for mobile investment projects.
"As is known, Her Majesty's Government's view in this matter is shared by both the T.U.C. and the C.B.I.
"Meanwhile those areas of the United Kingdom not classified as central will be treated as at present.
"We shall wish, of course, to keep the Commission informed of the aid we give in respect of major projects.
"As far as our central areas are concerned, the standard aid will be well within the 20 per cent. authorised.
"The Commission have also told us that the present arrangements allow of higher levels of support being acceptable if cases of special difficulty arise and, in particular, they have given us assurances as to measures we might consider necessary to relieve the consequences of major steel redundancies in the intermediate areas.
"The outcome of these discussions is wholly satisfactory."
My Lords, that is the end of the Statement.
§ 3.53 p.m.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I am sure we are all grateful to the noble Baroness, and I should like to offer to her my warmest possible congratulations on making so interesting a piece of non-information like this. I wonder whether she can tell us where we can go for the 34 substance behind these various remarks. We learn that the Council has made further progress, that agreement was reached on a document, that substantial progress was made towards agreement, that the Council has continued its consideration, that the Community Finance Ministers will discuss further, and so on. Where can we go for what is behind those words? On the question of the finance discussions—and I would agree that this is really the most important problem which faces us at the present time—since sterling is something like 14 per cent. below the original Smithsonian parity, can the noble Baroness tell us to what extent our obligations to the Community are increased, now that we have floated so far down in relation to the other European countries? In relation to the latter part of the Statement—which when we get a copy of Hansard, we shall wish to study very closely because it would appear to be a fact that there is more information there about the regional policy—can the noble Baroness say whether there is any other document to which we can turn for further information?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord feels that this is a Statement of non-information, because I think he was one of the first noble Lords to ask that regular progress Statements should be made to this House, and that is basically what this Statement is. Regarding the documents, the document on the GATT, for example, will be available in the usual way in the Printed Paper Office once the translation has been made. Perhaps I may just say that I thought the Statement had some very positive and very important matters in it as regards regional policy, which is of considerable interest to this country, and I should have said that it gave a great deal of information.
As regards the financial obligations which, as the noble Lord knows, are extremely complicated, the fact remains that although sterling is still floating we have of course undertaken that we shall return to a fixed parity when we consider that it is in our reasonable interests, and indeed in the interests of the Community, to do so. The noble Lord asked in particular whether there is any document about the regional policy. I must tell 35 the noble Lord that at present there is not, because that relates to Article 92 and Article 93 of the Treaty, and it is of course a provisional arrangement until a new system is devised in the Community, which takes into account the problems not only of agricultural areas but of industrial areas.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, may I say that it was precisely because I wanted information that I thought we really must have this Statement, even though I was not too optimistic about factual information. The noble Baroness did not really answer my point about our financial commitments to the E.E.C., in the light of the continuing downward float of sterling. What I asked was: what is the amount of our increased commitment to the E.E.C. in terms of sterling? With regard to the regional policy, I think I said that I thought the Statement was most forthcoming, but here again there is no indication about the definition of the areas, and I wonder to what extent Parliament here is permitted to have its say as to how the various areas should be defined.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, as the noble Lord knews well, we have our own arrangements in this country for special development areas and for development areas. These will not be defined as peripheral areas. They are being left as they are; in other words, we can continue to give exactly the same amount of regional aid in the same way as we do at present. Those parts of the country which are now defined as intermediate areas, as well as those areas which are not assisted at all, will come within the definition of the "central areas". The noble Lord will remember that the E.E.C. limitation on aid given to central areas is 20 per cent., and our level at the moment approximates to 4 per cent. But on top of that, if there were particular difficulties—for example, if there were steel closures—we should be able, even in the intermediate areas, to give some special assistance; and we have, of course, undertaken to tell the Community of any large aid project which we feel is necessary. So far as our commitment is concerned, despite the change in currency 36 —which might also affect the German mark, for example—our commitment as to the percentage of the Community budget which we give in each year still remains the same as a percentage.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, will the noble Baroness tell us how the central and peripheral planning of the E.E.C. differs from our own ideas about regional policy? This is a most sensitive area for us, and I should like to know how the E.E.C's. arrangements differ from our own ideas on the subject.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the noble Baroness asked specifically about the central areas. They do not differ from our own idea of what are central areas; in other words, that one should give aid which is transparent, which can be seen. The idea of having central areas at all is to try to avoid a bidding among all members of the Community for these big mobile industries in areas which do not really need them.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, may I thank the noble Baroness for that long Statement while saying that it puts some of us at a disadvantage not to have had previous notice of it because we cannot possibly ask constructive supplementary questions. May I make an effort to do so, however, by asking the noble Baroness if she is aware that centripetal forces are now working in the E.E.C. and that the German Financial Minister Scheel himself seems to be getting bored with it? Secondly, despite the fact that to-day at the Royal Show at Warwick Mr. Soames said that C.A.P. had nothing to do with the English cost of living, will the noble Baroness be prepared to admit that the fact that we have abandoned the sterling area in favour of a floating pound is one of the vital factors in our cost of living? Finally, so far as Cardiff is concerned, we have a lobby on the steel industry which is going to lose £36 million on wages in the Cardiff area and its periphery unless we can find some answer to the British steel problem that will satisfy this traditional home of steel? In this connection, may we at some time have a half-day debate on this very important Statement given to-day?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, on the question of a half-day debate, this is a matter that I think I should draw to the attention of my noble friend the Leader of the House. On the question of whether I am aware of centrifugal—
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKCentripetal, Ostpolitik—
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, if it is forces which draw towards the centre that are in the noble Lord's mind, I may say that it is for that reason that the central areas have been defined. They are meant to avoid drawing industry inevitably into the central areas. So far as the floating of the pound is concerned, I think the noble Lord will agree from various Statements and debates that have taken place on this matter that this was the correct decision to make at the time. My right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has given a pledge that he will return to a fixed parity as soon as he considers it correct to do so. On the question of Cardiff, certainly I understand the problems of steel in that area; and that is why I said that we had the assurance that even in that kind of area we should be able to give help if needed.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she is aware that what she has given us is largely a series of headlines without the facts on which those headlines are based? Can we therefore have statements of the various pieces of evidence which were put forward in the discussions so that we may be able to judge of those particular matters? In particular, can the noble Baroness tell us what lay behind her bare statement that a discussion took place, or a paper was submitted, with regard to the slowing down of the increase in prices? Can we have the fullest information about what was contained in that document?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVTEMy Lords, I think it is inevitable, when a progress report is made to your Lordships' House, that there are occasions when one cannot say what conclusions have been reached because matters are still under negotiation. The noble Lord will be aware also that the proceedings within the Council are themselves private, although the fact remains 38 that certain documents are translated and made available. And I refer particularly to the documents on the proposals about discussions on the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade. About prices, the Community adopted a resolution on a counter-inflation policy, and as soon as the official English text is agreed it will be made available to the House.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Baroness will remember that last Wednesday we had a debate on the E.E.C. institutions and about the relationships of the national Parliaments. I hope that the noble Baroness will agree that it is not a very sensible procedure to break into the Report stage of a Bill to receive a report of one month's work of the Council of Ministers. Will the noble Baroness not agree that we need to look at the procedures of this House not only to ensure that we fully understand and appreciate what is being decided by the Council of Ministers, and is binding on this State, but also to consider ways and means by which Ministers may be informed prior to the meeting of the Council of Ministers so that the Ministers may be aware of what Parliament has in mind? We need to look at our procedures and not to continue with this inadequate process. We accept that by so doing the Government have met an undertaking they gave, but it is a procedure totally inadequate for the circumstances and importance of this subject.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVTEMy Lords, the noble Lord is a member of the Select Committee on Procedure. He more than anyone else will know what is in the mind of that Committee on how this House should discuss draft instruments and thereby inform their Ministers on the actions that they may take in discussions within the Community. But my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy thought it important that the House should have a Statement, particularly on Regional Policy which is a matter of great importance. That being so, he thought it right to record the type of discussions which have been going on, many of which are of a very long-term nature.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, may I make it clear that I was not complaining, 39 but merely seeking to point to the complete inadequacy of our present procedures?
§ VISCOUNT AMORYMy Lords, will my noble friend agree that a short progress report covering a very broad field is bound to be of a very general nature and will inevitably lead us to feel that our appetite for more information cannot be satisfied by a single Statement of this kind? Having said that, I should like to ask my noble friend whether she agrees that this particular Statement could be summarised as saying: "So far, so good." In relation to one sector of the field, international currency and the monetary aspects, I would guess that progress is going to be very slow and I would ask whether my noble friend thinks that in that sector we shall have to get used to progress on the lines of what I think Mr. Baldwin called "the inevitability of gradualness".
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend Lord Amory very much for having agreed that in a progress report like this, where many of the problems are of a long-term nature, it is better to have the information in this way than not to have it at all. If you take, for example, a problem such as reserve pooling, when it is being suggested that there should be economic and monetary union and full pooling by 1980, it is not the kind of question to discuss in a Statement across the Floor of the House.
§ LORD RITCHIE-CALDERMy Lords, will the Minister ask her noble friend to let us have our ball back? It was not Baldwin but Sydney Webb who talked about, "the inevitability of gradualness".
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, my noble friend said that it was Mr. Gladstone.
§ BARONESS WHITEMy Lords, Mr. Baldwin certainly practised it.
§ VISCOUNT AMORYMy Lords, there has been a suggestion by one of my noble friends that it is attributable to neither of those but to Mr. Sydney Webb.