HL Deb 30 January 1973 vol 338 cc574-9

6.52 p.m.

LORD ABERDARE rose to move, That this House agrees with the proposal of the Joint Committee on Delegated Legislation of last session that a permanent Joint Committee of both Houses should be set up to scrutinise delegated legislation and accordingly approves the recommendations (1) to (7) summarised in paragraph 143, I. Technical Scrutiny, of the Report of the Joint Committee of last Session (H.L.(1971–72)184). The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in the name of my noble friend the Leader of the House. This is to seek the agreement of the House to the recommendations of the Joint Committee on Delegated Legislation, which was so ably chaired by my noble friend Lord Brooke of Cumnor: that a Joint Scrutiny Committee should be established to consider all Statutory Instruments laid before both Houses of Parliament. My noble friend the Leader of the House announced in a Written Reply to my noble friend Lord Nugent of Guildford on December 6 last that the Government accepted these recommendations as well as those relating to the appointment of a Merits Committee in the House of Commons; and the Motion I am moving to-day is to seek the agreement of the House to these recommendations. They have already been supported in evidence given both to the Commons Procedure Committee in July, 1971, by the three Party Leaders in this House, as well as the Chairman of Committees, and also in evidence given to the Brooke Committee last Session by the three Party Leaders in this House.

I think I should just briefly draw attention to Recommendation (5) of the Brooke Committee's Report, which reads: The Chairman should in the first instance be a Member of the House of Commons drawn, following tradition, from the Opposition. Thereafter the Committee should be free to elect their Chairmen from either House as they think fit. I understand that there have been conversations between the Parties through the usual channels, and so far as the second sentence is concerned it has been agreed that the Chairman should be an Opposition Member of the other place.

At a time when the amount of subordinate legislation shows no sign of diminishing, I am sure that it is right that both Houses of Parliament should pool their resources in the work of scrutinising the great mass of Statutory Instruments which come before us. I hope, therefore, that your Lordships will agree that this Joint Scrutiny Committee is desirable. I should draw attention to the fact that it means the end of our Special Orders Committee, and I think it right that I should pay a tribute to their work over what has been nearly half a century. The Special Orders Committee was established in 1925, nearly twenty years before the other place established their machinery, and over those years our Committee has done a great deal of very valuable work. I think it is right on this occasion to pay tribute to them.

May I end by saying that the precise terms of reference of the new Joint Scrutiny Committee will be brought before the House in the very near future so that the Committee can begin to function as soon as possible. I beg to move.

Moved, That this House agrees with the proposal of the Joint Committee on Delegated Legislation of last Session that a permanent Joint Committee of both Houses should be set up to scrutinise delegated legislation and accordingly approves the recommendations (1) to (7) summarised in paragraph 143, I. Technical Scrutiny, of the Report of the Joint Committee of last Session (H.L. (1971–72) 184).—(Lord Aberdare.)

6.55 p.m.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, again I repeat our regret that the noble Earl cannot be with us. It is unfortunate that we are having to take this Motion without the first Motion to debate the whole of the Report. I am sure, however, that the noble Lord, the Deputy Leader, is quite right to introduce this particular proposal briefly, because I believe that if ever a single proposal should come before the House and receive unanimous approval, it is this one. It is something that has been advocated for a number of years. Therefore I think we can pass this Motion without a full debate. At the same time, holding our fire now means that we can discuss this matter along with all the other aspects of the Brooke Report. I do not think there is any need for me again to repeat the almost fulsome compliments I paid to Lord Brooke, to my noble friend Lord Diamond and others on what has been a first-class job of work. I am sure your Lordships must take this Report seriously, and that is why I have been so insistent in pressing the Government that we should have a full debate. That we shall be able to do.

Looking at the details of what is before us, I think it is a fact that in regard to paragraph 143.5 what we are approving is not going to happen precisely in that form. None the less, there is no reason why your Lordships should not approve it. Indeed, we may wish to be difficult if the Commons are going to insist on always having the Chairman whereas Lord Brooke suggested that the Committee should pick the best man, and I am bound to say that they could not have had a better man to chair this particular Committee. Nevertheless, we appreciate Commons feelings in these matters and I support and agree with what has been agreed in the Commons. There will be questions, as I have already given an indication. The noble Lord, or perhaps the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, will answer them when we come to debate matters in future. I should like to know—but I will not press the noble Lord now—who is going to look after hybrid Orders; the Commons never have and presumably the Joint Scrutiny Committee will. But it may be that they have not thought about that subject yet. If the noble Lord knows the answer to that question, I congratulate him; he has done a lot of homework very quickly.

The only other question I would ask is whether the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, is able to give us any indication of when the further Report of his Committee is due. I considered whether we might have debated it when it came along, but if it is too far distant in the future I shall be pressing the Government, as soon as the noble Earl is restored to full vigour and health, which we hope will be soon, to provide us with a chance to debate it. It is satisfactory that a matter which Members of your Lordships' House have agreed to unanimously, so far as those from all Parties who gave evidence are concerned, has in fact been adopted. I hope your Lordships will now be able to pass this particular Motion.

LORD WADE

My Lords, I think that all that is required of me is to echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for moving this Motion, and I welcome what he has said. Perhaps I can personally add my tribute to those that have already been paid to the excellent chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, over the Select Committee.

7.0 p.m.

LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR

My Lords, I am quite certain that all my colleagues on the Committee will be much gratified by what has been said from both sides of the House on this Committee's Report. I certainly do not wish to hold up proceedings in any way. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, has asked how soon we may be able to produce our further and final Report. I cannot answer that question because it depends on my colleagues quite as much as it does on myself. We should be able to hold eight meetings between now and the Easter Recess, and whether we can complete all our studies in that time no one can tell, but we will do our best. We have to review not only the hybrid Instruments, of which the noble Lord spoke, but Special Procedure Orders, the 40-day praying period, as it is called, and the possibility of improving Parliamentary control through some classification of the different kinds of Orders. The last may be a shadowy subject, but we feel that we should look into it before we finally report.

I do not think that any members of the Committee will be greatly grieved by what has happened about Recommendation No. 5. To the best of my belief the Committee framed that recommendation for this reason. In the 30 years' life of the Statutory Instruments Committee of another place there have been some outstanding chairmen. If someone who is as distinguished for his great interest in the subject as his extensive knowledge of it were subsequently translated from another place to become a Member of your Lordships' House, it seems rather strange that he should be irretrievably barred from continuing as chairman of the Committee. But I sympathise with the view that has been expressed in the Commons, and the Committee's Report is not damaged in any vital part by what has occurred on Recommendation No. 5. We are greatly strengthened by what has been said in your Lordships' House to-night and on previous occasions, and I can give an assurance, I believe, on behalf of all of my colleagues, that we shall endeavour to complete our work as rapidly as we can.

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition, and the noble Lord, Lord Wade, and my noble friend Lord Brooke of Cumnor, for their welcome to this Motion. May I just give the noble Lord the answer to the question that he asked, which is that until my noble friend and his Committee come forward with their recommendation about hybrid Orders, the Special Orders Committee will in fact continue in being and continue to scrutinise them.

On Question, Motion agreed to.